Author Topic: Tournament Point Suggestions  (Read 5790 times)

Keith_Huggins

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Tournament Point Suggestions
« on: November 23, 2006, 03:39:35 PM »
Hello all and happy thanksgiving...

Starting in January we are going to start tracking points for our tournaments. I wanted to get a few suggestions to help decide which points system to implement.
Here is some info on the tourneys I run.

I use Tournament Director 2.x

We play 2 tournaments a week every Wednesday and Every Saturday.

We typically have about 17+ on Saturdays and close to 30 on Saturdays.

We have a good amount of regulars but not the same people every week / game.

I would like to be able to limit the "one time hitters" from leading the points board.

The league will either run from January to Late Nov / Dec so at least 80+ possibly 90+ tournaments.

Please feel free to post any suggestions. My plan is to have a couple different point systems so that I can present them to my players and they can vote on it.

Thanks again
Keith Huggins

JonnyRockets

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 16
    • View Profile
    • JonnyRockets Cardroom
Re: Tournament Point Suggestions
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2006, 03:51:42 PM »
What do you plan to do with the Points system?  A tournament of Champions?  How many players in the Tourney of Champions?  say top 10 points leaders? 1 table - or maybe top 16 - 2 tables of 8 and room for dedicated dealers?

With the amount of Tournaments you'll be having - I don't think you'll have to worry about the "1 time hitters" getting into your TOC. 

So really any points scheme will work well for you.  The classic around here seems to be  Points = Number of players - Rank + 1.   So for 20 players - 1st gets 20 points, 2nd gets 19 etc.   Some people add a point for busting out the last winner (I do this,)  some take away points for rebuys. 

Jon

macacan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 265
    • View Profile
    • Chorley Poker League
Re: Tournament Point Suggestions
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2006, 04:12:41 PM »
I only run 1 table at a time so my points structure is easy as you can see on my web page.
We had a meeting before we started and it was a massive vote to minus points for re-buys.
Having run a few games now, I think we will restructure the system next year and bring in
some of the ideas that we have got on this site, like points for playing and points for hitmen.

there is some good stuff on here, and a lot of people willing to help.
TD must be the best.


http://www.chorleypokerleague.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

Keith_Huggins

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Point Suggestions
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2006, 10:38:09 PM »
Thank you for the suggestions so far.

What are all the default options Tournament Director has built in for tracking points.

I really want to make it as automated as possible.

britnt7

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Point Suggestions
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2006, 08:33:38 AM »
Keith,

I would suggest to have more than one session instead of having one big one for 80+ tourneys. Some may lose interest in playing if they are too far behind in points after already playing for 6 months. We only play one tournament a week (Sunday's) for ten weeks and award the top five with prizes. Then we start all over again, which everyone (even the ones that didn't do so well) came back for the second one.

Tim

tandemrx

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Point Suggestions
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2006, 09:10:48 AM »
I agree with the last post.  I was in a 6-month league last year and you had to pay a little extra to be in the running for points.  After a while, people would slowly drop out because they might be half way down the list and didn't see a lot of chance to catch up.  So the only people interested in the points and participating in the points championship were those in the top 10 spots.

I would limit it to no more than about 20 tourneys to keep people interested.

Do the math for whatever points schedule you choose with some theoretical finishes (give a couple people a couple of wins, others single wins and high places, other single wins and medium places, others high places and medium places, etc).  Then you can see whether or not, after 10 tourneys, if the people in the middle will have any chance of catching up with those in the top spots.

I also like the idea of getting at least token points for showing up.  Then you have extra motivation to play.

For my single rebuy OR single add-on tourneys, everyone starts with 2 points, but you lose a point for a rebuy or 0.5 points for an add-on, so at a minimum you will finish with 1 point.

Here is my "points for playing" formula: (n-r+2) + if(r= 1,3,0) + if(r = 2,2,0) + if(r = 3,1,0) - nr - 0.5*na + 0.5*nh

Essentially, start with 2 points, 1 extra point for each step up the ladder, top 3 places get 3, 2, and 1 extra points.  lose a point for rebuy, lose 0.5 points for add-on, gain 1 point for each hit.

So, the bigger your tournout, the more points you can win by placing higher in the tourney.

Not sure how this would work for a 30 person league.

Keith_Huggins

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Point Suggestions
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2006, 02:10:58 PM »
Thank you Tandemrx and britnt7 - I like the idea of smaller time lines.

I am thinking of doing quarterly - So every 3 months top whatever gets so much or a tourney.

But also a end of year tourney possibly the top dogs of the previous quarters get a free ride or something.

Tandemrx what does this do  if(r= 1,3,0) I understand if r (your rank) = 1 (1st place) but what does the ,3,0 do?

tandemrx

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Point Suggestions
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2006, 02:32:00 PM »
I think it explains this in the help section somewhere, but it took some help from Corey for me to see this . . . lets see, its section 8.1.1 and you will see the "if" function in the bottom of the box with a bunch of other functions that can be used in points formulas.

For "if" there are 3 parameters and for the example of:
  +if(r=1,3,0)

it means that "if the rank is 1 (1st place), then return the number 3, otherwise return the number zero".

So, if a person gets a rank of "1" then the whole condition returns the number "3" and it turns into:
+3   (so 3 points get added to that persons score).  If a person gets any other rank, then the condition returns the number "0" and it turns into:
+0 (zero points get added)


So, for +if(r=2,2,0):

if the rank is 2 (second place), then add +2, othewise, +0

And for +if(r=3,1,0):

if the rank is 3 (3rd place), then add +1, otherwise, +0

Essentially I give the 1st place person an extra 3 points, 2nd place an extra 2 points, and 3rd place an extra point.  Everybody else starts out with 2 points and gets one point for each place up the ladder they climb.

With 10 people it works out to (without hits, rebuys, add-on point changes):

1st, 14.00
2nd, 12.00
3rd, 10.00
4th, 8.00
5th, 7.00
6th, 6.00
7th, 5.00
8th, 4.00
9th, 3.00
10th, 2.00

For a tourney with 11 people it works out to:


1st, 15.00
2nd, 13.00
3rd, 11.00
4th, 9.00
5th, 8.00
6th, 7.00
7th, 6.00
8th, 5.00
9th, 4.00
10th, 3.00
11th, 2.00

Make sense?

It is impressive how complex you could make these formulas - but fun to come up with different schemes.

Hope that helps.

Keith_Huggins

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Point Suggestions
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2006, 02:57:14 PM »
Thank you - that was a termendous help...

And thanks for pointing out the section.

britnt7

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Point Suggestions
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2006, 02:29:20 PM »
I would suggest finding a point system that works for you and then keep the point structure because the number of players per tourney may differ. My 23 person tourney starts with 32 points for first place and goes down by the rank. This way it is more fair if you win a tourney that has 23 players one week (receive 32 points) and another week someone else wins with only 20 players (still receive 32 points). The 2nd winner shouldn't be penalized for other players not showing up and have an option to win the same amount of points that someone won in week two with 23 players.

Our ten week, ten tourney, 23 players have always came down to the last week to determine the top five money winners which keeps everyone interested.

Keith_Huggins

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Point Suggestions
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2006, 02:52:51 PM »
Thanks for your input Britnt7

I believe differently, I dont think of it as penalizing the second winner as much as rewarding the first winner (in your scenario - the larger tourney) It is harder to win a bigger tourney so I believe they should receive more points.

So far Here is what I am thinking.

Points by position     (n-r+1)
1 point or a half point for knocking someone out     +nh or +(nh*.5)
everyone at final table (9th) receives a extra point or half point     +If r<10,1,0        I think this one is right im trying to say If their rank is less than 10 then add 1 if not add 0
finally points for being in the money one extra for each setp so if it pays out 3 spots then     +IF r==3,1,0 +IF r==2,2,0 +IF r==1,3,0     I believe there should be some ( in there somewhere as well but good for my explanation.

anyways - more example are welcome and thanks to everyones comments.

Keith Huggins

tandemrx

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 327
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Point Suggestions
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2006, 04:03:54 PM »
I have to say that while my own points scheme, like the one you (keith) are considering, does give bigger tourney winner more points based on the idea that it is harder to win with more people.

But, there is something to be said for Britnt7's approach because it does help keep a balance in points as the league progresses so that the leaders don't get out of reach of those in the middle or lower ground - and thus keeps people's interest.

That is why people come up with these elaborate formula's with logarithmic approaches and the hypotenuse of the right triangle divided by the number of beers the 3rd person brought to the tourney  :D.

A mix of the 2 approaches tends to make things fun for all, but still rewards good play - cearly if there was 1 correct formula then we would all use it.  It is fun that we have this program to experiment with various formulas.

Keith, I do think the formulas you list will do what you want them to do (assuming you add the parenthesis in appropriate places, but it sounds like you know what to do there).

If my tourneys were larger, I would probably add the final table item that you have added - nice idea.

I need more experience with my own formula to know if it will be successful in not just one season, but a following one.

brenner

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 27
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Point Suggestions
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2006, 06:15:40 PM »
Next year starts our 3rd year and once again I am changing the points system.  It is a work in progress.  You have to figure out how to come up with a point structure that is fair, keeps players coming back and ultimately leads to mild competition.

The system we are adopting next year is as follows:

1 point for each person you beat (the bigger the tourney, the harder it is to win)
1 point for each person you knock out (why not reward the players that are doing all the work)
1 point for making it to the Final 9 (gives some significance to being at a "Final Table")
1/2 way through the season we start offering a bounty on the STD points leader (5% of their STD points - works out to between 2 and 5 points)

I am no longer giving extra points for coming in the money because it's a long season and you're already getting rewarded with money.  The Top 8 Point leaders go to the Final Table Championship (freeroll), everyone else plays a freeroll for the 9th spot.  We count your Top 8 out of 10 tourneys.  The starting chip stacks for the Championship game are graduated, giving an incentive to end the year higher in rank (e.g., 1st starts with twice as many chips as the 9th spot)
« Last Edit: December 22, 2006, 03:13:19 PM by brenner »
"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

theHammer

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 41
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Point Suggestions
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2006, 03:35:22 PM »
My point system gives more points to the top players when there is more competition (more players) and less points when the competition is less:

round(10*sqrt(n)/sqrt(r))

rounded to whole numbers; minimum points awarded: 10

Through the "TEST ALL" function, you can plug in different numbers of players and see if this is something that would be workable for you.  Rather than award points for "hits" in the formula, I now just put that in the "Game" tab, so the static numbers that you see via the "TEST ALL" may actually be different.  You can do the same thing with Rebuys and Add-ons.

i.e. - With 16 players: 1st place = 40 points; 4th place = 20 points; 16th place = 10 points.  I award 2 points for every HIT which would then be added to the static numbers.

britnt7

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 42
    • View Profile
Re: Tournament Point Suggestions
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2006, 10:09:48 AM »
I don't necessarily agree with rewarding points for hits. We had one tourney last season in which the winner won the whole tourney by only knocking out only 1 person (2nd place finisher). If we would have awarded points for hits, 2nd & 3rd place would have gotten more points than the winner of the tourney. Granted this don't happen often but when it does, it may make the winner a little unhappy just because he didn't catch a big hand when someone decided to move all-in.

We keep track of hits to award the person with the most hits an award at the end of each season. This works out far much better than awarding points to skew the scheme of the season. I would rather award the person that plays the best than the person that knocks more people out of the tourney. Anyone can get hits, just watch the 2006 world series of poker. Even though Jamie Gold won, I don't think he was the best player. He just caught every card possible to win.

Just my 2 cents.