Author Topic: How to properly Chop points.  (Read 3308 times)

mwendorf3

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How to properly Chop points.
« on: October 12, 2012, 11:34:51 PM »
While trying to determine if we want to use this program for our league, which is a highly probable, I have one final issue that I'm trying to solve.  How do you chop points to get it accurate?  I have my points system setup as follows:

- 1 league tournament per month
- 20 players
- top 15 earn points in increasing order by position 1pt for 15th on up to 15pts for 1st.

Since we've already played 10 tournaments this year, I'm backloading our tournaments to make sure my points system is correct.  In the second tournament, the 2nd and 3rd place players chopped evenly so 13.5 points each and 1st took the 15 points.  Once I got down to the final three in the tournament, I did the CTRL C to bring up the chop menu and the amount to chop for the money showed correctly, but the points showed zero points to chop.  So I adjusted the points giving first 15 pts, and then 2nd and 3rd splitting 13.5 each.

After doing the manipulation, it appears that the program rather than adding the points, it didn't and seemed to incorrectly value the points.  One player who chopped, should have shown after two tournaments with 21.5 points, but TD showed him with 23.  I think now I have it all jacked up and will have to probably delete the tournament and start over, but I'd like to figure out the proper way to chop it up and count these points correctly.  Is chopping half points possible in the program?

Magic_fubu

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Re: How to properly Chop points.
« Reply #1 on: October 12, 2012, 11:43:21 PM »
Yes, it is possible. I personally have not done that, but I have heard it done. One thing to check, under settings or preferences, is "points precision". If it's set to 0, that would be the reason as to why you are not seeing the fractional point. Change that to 1 or 2 so you'd see either 13.5 or 13.50 respectively. If that doesn't take care of it, let me know and I'll see if I can figure it out, or someone else may end up having a better solution all together :)
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mwendorf3

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Re: How to properly Chop points.
« Reply #2 on: October 12, 2012, 11:46:18 PM »
Good idea, but doesn't seem like the issue.  I have points precision set to 2 and score precision set to 4.  I think these are both default settings.  Appreciate the thoughts on it.

Magic_fubu

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Re: How to properly Chop points.
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2012, 02:01:15 AM »
What formula are you using for each tournament, and what formula are you using for the season stats?
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mwendorf3

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Re: How to properly Chop points.
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2012, 09:23:20 AM »
Points for Playing on Game tab is if(rank <= 15, 16 - rank,0)

In my stats profile I am using two formulas cause I want to know the total points for all tournaments and also the points for tournaments with dropping the two lowest scores

sum(scores)
sum(top(max(4, n - 2), scores))


mwendorf3

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Re: How to properly Chop points.
« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2012, 10:44:45 AM »
I also just did a mock test tournament with my 20 players using points and payouts.

1st - $120 and 15pts
2nd - $70 and 14pts
3rd - $40 and 13pts
4th - $20 and 12pts

Simple test I did was to get down to the top two and do a chop of 50/50 for both money and points.  So first and second should have each received $95 and 14.5pts.  The money does chop correctly.  Each player shows $95, but they both show points value of 15.00 when they should be each 14.50.

Not sure if there is logic that causes it to round up or not.  But I'd really like to get this fixed as the chopping of points happens alot in our league and just last year a half of point is what separated 1st and 2nd.

Magic_fubu

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Re: How to properly Chop points.
« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2012, 03:32:47 PM »
I'm going to do some testing, and I'll report back if I figure it out. Probably won't be until tomorrow, as the people I was leeching internet from finally protected their connection, and we're awaiting a wireless router. :(
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Corey Cooper

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Re: How to properly Chop points.
« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2012, 09:53:51 PM »
Points are awarded in several ways:
- Points for buy-in setting on the Game tab
- Points for rebuy setting on the Game tab
- Points for add-on setting on the Game tab
- Points for hit setting on the Game tab
- Points for Playing setting on the Game tab
- Prizes on the Prizes tab

In your case, you've got a Points for Playing formula: if(rank <= 15, 16 - rank,0)

Your formula is based on the player's rank.  The formula doesn't care and doesn't know if players chop.  It only knows what they are ranked.

When players chop, you're essentially telling the TD application: "These players are done.  They wish to end the tournament now and divide the prizes in a non-standard way."  So the points that are being "chopped" are only points associated with prizes.

By default, chopping players receive the same rank, but the Chop dialog allows you to set each players' rank if you want.  That will affect the Points for Playing formula.

If you don't want to change the players' ranks, but still want the Points for Playing to turn out differently, I would suggest adjusting each player's points by editing the player on the Players tab.

mwendorf3

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Re: How to properly Chop points.
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2012, 10:18:44 PM »
Ok, I adjusted it and it shows up in the points column for that tournament..  But that brings me to another fix I need to figure out.  The adjustment fixed the points for that tournament and shows up  as 14.50 once I put in an adjustment of -.50.  But the following formulas aren't reflecting that amount.

Points - showing the 14.50 after I adjusted down in players edit
Total Points - sum(scores)  - Still showing 15pts
Points (Top 10) - sum(top(max(4, n - 2), scores))  - Still showing 15pts

I guess what I'm looking for is to get this all working together?  What do I need to do to clean this up?  Is it just a matter of tweaking my formulas?  If using sum(scores) isn't taking into account the adjustments, is there another variable I can reference?

Corey Cooper

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Re: How to properly Chop points.
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2012, 10:57:05 PM »
Make sure you save the tournament after you make the adjustment, then press the "Refresh Stats" button on the Stats tab.

mwendorf3

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Re: How to properly Chop points.
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2012, 10:59:10 PM »
Did that..  Still no go.

mwendorf3

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Re: How to properly Chop points.
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2012, 11:21:11 PM »
I think I might have it.  In the Statistics profile I was also using the same formula for scoring that I was for determining the points..  if(rank <= 15, 16 - rank,0)

When really all I need to do is for scoring use Points.  And then from there, I can use the other formulas to get Total Points and Points (w/two drops).

Appreciate the help guys, like I'd said, just started working with this awesome program this week.  I'm going to play around with a few others and make sure the points are calculating exactly how I want them too..

Magic_fubu

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Re: How to properly Chop points.
« Reply #12 on: October 14, 2012, 12:32:19 AM »
Glad to hear it. I finally found an unsecured site, and was getting the same thing about TD "knowing" only the ranks, not that the ranks themselves are chopped. As an idea, Corey, would it be possible to see something implemented where if the chop occurs, TD internally chops the rank? Like if 2nd and 3rd chop, they export as 2nd and 2nd, but internally are 2.5 and 2.5? (I hope I made some sense?)
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Corey Cooper

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Re: How to properly Chop points.
« Reply #13 on: October 15, 2012, 12:00:29 PM »
I think I might have it.  In the Statistics profile I was also using the same formula for scoring that I was for determining the points..  if(rank <= 15, 16 - rank,0)

When really all I need to do is for scoring use Points.  And then from there, I can use the other formulas to get Total Points and Points (w/two drops).

Appreciate the help guys, like I'd said, just started working with this awesome program this week.  I'm going to play around with a few others and make sure the points are calculating exactly how I want them too..

Use the following as your Tournament Score formula:

points

This will use each player's Points value from each tournament.  Using the same formula as the Points for Playing formula is fine, but as you can see if you make adjustments they don't show up in stats (at least not in the Overall Score) because you're essentially ignoring the Points value the player earned in the tournament and are recomputing it using the Tournament Score formula.

Corey Cooper

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Re: How to properly Chop points.
« Reply #14 on: October 15, 2012, 12:03:16 PM »
Glad to hear it. I finally found an unsecured site, and was getting the same thing about TD "knowing" only the ranks, not that the ranks themselves are chopped. As an idea, Corey, would it be possible to see something implemented where if the chop occurs, TD internally chops the rank? Like if 2nd and 3rd chop, they export as 2nd and 2nd, but internally are 2.5 and 2.5? (I hope I made some sense?)

As I mentioned, the chop allows you to set the ranks as you want, but the program isn't designed to use fractional ranks.  I've never even heard of that approach, and I'm having a hard time even reconciling it as "correct" in my head.  What advantage do you get from this?