Author Topic: Streamline the buy-in process  (Read 2058 times)

no_hoper

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Streamline the buy-in process
« on: January 30, 2012, 05:51:41 PM »
Haven't v3 yet so I'm not sure if any of this has been addressed yet...apologies if I'm repeating.

  • Add a 'New Player' button to the buy-in dialog.  That way I can add a new player on the fly without having to quit the buy-in screen.  It slows down the process when I have to quit the buy-in dialog to add a new player, then right-click on their name in the player list and buy them in, re-enter the initial chips received etc. Then re-open the buy-in dialog
  • Allow selection of re-buys/addons in the buy-in screen.  For re-buy tourneys where players can do a re-buy upfront I either have to use a custom amount/initial chips (which messes up the Buy-in/Re-buy/Add-on counts) or write down when someone double buys upfront and then enter them en-masse before I can start the tournament.
  • This one is a bit of a stretch - we offer players bonus chips if they show up 30 mins before the posted start time and penalize players if they show up after the posted start time (it's amazing how well this gets us started on time now!).  It would be awesome if we could get an option on the buy-in screen to reflect this.   Yes - I realize you can customize the initial chips received but this is cumbersome since I will often have the late players mixed in line with guys who were on time (or those who showed up within 30 mins of game time - they get a standard stack)

Thanks in advance.

CigarDan

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Re: Streamline the buy-in process
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2012, 07:10:47 PM »
I too would like to be able to do an add-on as I am buying in my players. If you added a check-box next to the box you click to buy someone in for the add-on it would save me a good bit of time collecting the add-ons at the tables before the first hand is dealt. If the buy-in and add-on could be done simultaneously, that would really help me out.

As for the re-buy situation, it sounds to me as if you allow your players to "double buy" as opposed to re-buying when they bust out. There are two solutions to your problem that I can see off the top of my head.
1. a "double buy" option box is added to the buy-in screen, this will take time should Corey decide to implement it. In the mean time, See option 2.
2. Create a new player in your league (let's call him "Nil") buy this player in and bust him out as many times as is needed to get the correct chip count, as long as you aren't offering points for re-buying, this is actually quite simple. Once you have reached the requisite number of "buy and busts", "Nil" will finish Dead Last, altering you point scale (assuming you use one) to make Dead Last and second to last equal in the eyes of the standings you're clear and Nil will always reside at the bottom of your stats.

Magic_fubu

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Re: Streamline the buy-in process
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2012, 10:10:41 PM »
I believe that TD3 has the "new player" button - have only run it once since upgrading, so I am not 100%

As for your third bullet, I see the merit, but as far as automation goes, I don't think it's going to happen. However, you can adjust chip counts - Adjust all at the 30 minutes to go so they have the bonus... and as they show up late, penalize them at that time.

On a personal note, I don't use chip stacks or show that - just not something that my league players see as a need.
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CigarDan

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Re: Streamline the buy-in process
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2012, 11:14:43 PM »

On a personal note, I don't use chip stacks or show that - just not something that my league players see as a need.

I use this function to once heads-up to determine who has who covered simply by counting one stack (if they are above chip ave. then they have the other player covered. My league uses add-ons that not every player takes so the chip number is different than simply multiplying the starting stack by the number of players.

Magic_fubu

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Re: Streamline the buy-in process
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2012, 01:02:09 AM »
Which is totally understandable - we're a "fun" league, and I know that we could use this too, but when we color up, we're generous and round up... We don't race off. For us, I would only be able to accurately do it once we're down to 1k and 5k chips.  Perhaps it would be very easy to get your request in - I don't know as I'm not a coder.
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Corey Cooper

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Re: Streamline the buy-in process
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2012, 11:16:07 AM »
Haven't v3 yet so I'm not sure if any of this has been addressed yet...apologies if I'm repeating.

  • Add a 'New Player' button to the buy-in dialog.  That way I can add a new player on the fly without having to quit the buy-in screen.  It slows down the process when I have to quit the buy-in dialog to add a new player, then right-click on their name in the player list and buy them in, re-enter the initial chips received etc. Then re-open the buy-in dialog

The "Add Players to Tournament" dialog has a "New Player" button which switches to the New Player dialog.  I think what I will end up doing is adding a panel to each of the "New Player", "Add Players to Tournament", and "Buyin Players" dialogs with buttons for each of those 3 dialogs, allowing one to switch instantly from any one of those dialogs to any other of those dialogs.

  • Allow selection of re-buys/addons in the buy-in screen.  For re-buy tourneys where players can do a re-buy upfront I either have to use a custom amount/initial chips (which messes up the Buy-in/Re-buy/Add-on counts) or write down when someone double buys upfront and then enter them en-masse before I can start the tournament.

There's been a to-do item to create a more customized buy-in dialog, but I've been hesitant to do it because of the many variations it might need.  The other to-do item is to allow the creation of multiple buy-in profiles.  This would allow you to pre-create different buy-in amounts, chips received, etc, and name them, and then on the Buy-in dialog simply select one of the profiles and have the values update automatically.  (And do the same with rebuys and add-ons.)  This is more likely to be implemented in the near future.

  • This one is a bit of a stretch - we offer players bonus chips if they show up 30 mins before the posted start time and penalize players if they show up after the posted start time (it's amazing how well this gets us started on time now!).  It would be awesome if we could get an option on the buy-in screen to reflect this.   Yes - I realize you can customize the initial chips received but this is cumbersome since I will often have the late players mixed in line with guys who were on time (or those who showed up within 30 mins of game time - they get a standard stack)

I think while not necessarily perfect for it, the buy-in profiles option would work for this.

macacan

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Re: Streamline the buy-in process
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2012, 12:47:46 PM »
    [quote author
    • This one is a bit of a stretch - we offer players bonus chips if they show up 30 mins before the posted start time and penalize players if they show up after the posted start time (it's amazing how well this gets us started on time now!).  It would be awesome if we could get an option on the buy-in screen to reflect this.   Yes - I realize you can customize the initial chips received but this is cumbersome since I will often have the late players mixed in line with guys who were on time (or those who showed up within 30 mins of game time - they get a standard stack)

    Thanks in advance.
    [/quote]


    I have extra chips for the early bird, I set it to allow 1 add on, anyone who gets there by the set time gets the add on, the chips and the points awarded for that, I have the count down set to start the tourney at a set time.
    I have a sound and screen set for the end of this, any player that turns up after this gets no add so no extra chips and no extra points.
    Since implementing this my games start on time and with no late comers.

     8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

    no_hoper

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    Re: Streamline the buy-in process
    « Reply #7 on: February 01, 2012, 03:08:50 AM »
    The "Add Players to Tournament" dialog has a "New Player" button which switches to the New Player dialog.  I think what I will end up doing is adding a panel to each of the "New Player", "Add Players to Tournament", and "Buyin Players" dialogs with buttons for each of those 3 dialogs, allowing one to switch instantly from any one of those dialogs to any other of those dialogs.

    Rather than switching from one dialog to another and losing the context of whatever data you have entered, wouldn't it be smoother to open the other dialog as a nested transaction or sub-task?  

    Let me demonstrate by way of a workflow example:

    In a typical scenario in our games - It's a rebuy tourney so players can single-buy or double-buy (buy-in + rebuy).  In addition, we're giving players who arrive 30 mins before start time a chip bonus of 1K, players who arrive within 30 mins of start time get the standard start stack while players who arrive after posted start time get penalized 1K...Our morning satellite has run overtime, the main event starts at noon and it's 11:45 already.  I have 30 - 40 (impatient) players in line waiting to buyin. The first guy hands over his money, so I open up the Add Player dialog...
    • I know the first few guys all showed up early so I set the initial chip count to +1K
    • Player 1 buys in for a double buy.  I put a check next to his name on the list and note down his name (so I can register all the rebuys later before the tourney actually starts).  Note: I leave the dialog open.
    • Players 2 - 5 go through the same proccess
    • Player 6 is a new Player. Now I have to click OK on the Add Player dialog to save the work I've already done.  Click on New Player which opens the New Player dialog, enter the new players details and click OK to save the details.  This adds them to the tournament but now I have to find them in the player list, right-click on their name and select the buy-in player menu action, re-select the player in the list, re-enter the buy-in details and click OK.
    • Back to the Add Player dialog again
    • Player 7 showed up at 11:40 so he doesn't get the bonus, so no need to mod the Add Player dialog since the initial chips are good to go.
    • Player 8 was early so now I have to close the Add Player dialog, re-open it and tweak the details again
    • ...and so on.  I'm sure you get the idea.

    To cut to the chase, I think simply going from one dialog to another does not really solve the functional problem.  I think the idea you presented regarding buy-in profiles offers promise.  What if you combine that with a bulk entry style interface for player buy-ins where each selected player can have their own buy-in options.  Let me try to demonstrate using a table....
    Sel.PlayerBuyin ProfileRebuy ProfileAddon Profile
    XBobStandard Buy-inNo RebuyNo Addon
    _Fred---
    XMargeStd BuyinStd RebuyNo Addon
    XYuloff W.Late BuyinStd RebuyStd Addon
    [New Player]
    [OK][Cancel]

    (Note: Fred is not selected and thus not included in this tourney.....yet)
    ...where...
    [New Player] is a button that opens a new modal dialog, allowing you to add a new player.  When you click OK on the new player dialog, the dialog closes and the newly added player now appears in the player list of the Add Players dialog.

    Std Buyin might define a buyin profile where....
    Amount = (formula) buyinCost
    Starting Stack = (formula) chipsReceived
    Points = (formula) pointsForBuyin

    Early Buyin might define a buyin profile where....
    Amount = (formula) buyinCost
    Starting Stack = (formula) chipsReceived + 1000
    Points = (formula) pointsForBuyin + 0.5
     
    and so on.

    Sorry if this is not making sense, it's late and I'm trying to finish work commitments while I'm writing this.....
    « Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 03:14:35 AM by no_hoper »

    no_hoper

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    Re: Streamline the buy-in process
    « Reply #8 on: February 01, 2012, 03:18:30 AM »
    PS: Corey....don't get me wrong, you still have the best tournament manager out there.  Bar none.  $39.99?  Heck, I'd pay $199.99 and think I'd gotten a bargain.

    Corey Cooper

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    Re: Streamline the buy-in process
    « Reply #9 on: February 01, 2012, 10:49:17 AM »
    This makes a lot of sense, actually.  You've given me some insight I had not had before.

    Currently, the "Add Players" dialog allows you to buy players into the tournament, and also has a "New Player" button that basically cancels the dialog and opens the "New Player" dialog.  It was just a drop-in to help out.  The "Add Players" dialog works as a single transaction, so to speak, in that you select everyone to buy-in at once, and everyone will be bought-in with the same parameters (same fee, same rake, same chips, etc).

    With the addition of buy-in, rebuy, and add-on profiles, you will be able to specify named configuration profiles.  This will make it much easier, to take an example, to have the concept of early and late arrivers, who receive different chip amounts.  However, the way the "Add Players" dialog works today (and the "Buy-in Players" dialog, as well), you would still have to press the "Add Players" button, select only early or late arrivers (not mixed), select the appropriate profile, and then "OK".  Then repeat, selecting the other players and the other profile.  I think this is fine for today, but I can see how this could be more streamlined, as you put it.

    So here's what I propose: the current dialogs stay as they are, with the exception that I'll be adding the profile selections.  Then I'll add a new dialog, yet to be named but we'll call it "Mass Buy-in" dialog for now.  I'm thinking this will have two sections: one lists the "Available" players (as the "Add Players" dialog does today), and the second section lists the players whom you have "Bought-in", along with their buy-in profile.  A "New Player" button would open the "New Player" dialog (leaving the "Mass Buy-in" dialog open underneath).  The "New Player" dialog would have the addition of the buy-in panel, so the player could be added and bought-in simultaneously.  Once the "OK" button is pressed on the "New Player" dialog, the player is added to the "Available" section in the "Mass Buy-in" dialog, or to the "Bought-in" section, if they were bought-in on the "New Player" dialog.  Players can be removed from the "Bought-in" section at any time.

    The "Mass Buy-in" dialog will have buttons "OK" (or maybe it should be "Commit"), "Clear" (or "Reset") and "Close".  Notice no "Cancel" button.  The idea being if one wants to start over, they press "Clear", and after confirmation, all players are removed from the "Bought-in" section.  But pressing "Close" only closes the dialog.  By pressing the button to open the "Mass Buy-in" dialog again, all settings remain.  The buy-ins don't actually occur until the dialog is "committed" ("OK" is pressed).  So, if I open the "Mass Buy-in" dialog and buy-in 12 players, they're not really bought-in yet, they're just "ready to buy-in".  If I then press "Close", then open the "Mass Buy-in" dialog again, the same 12 players will be in the "Bought-in" section.

    I'm not sure whether or not I would want to add the "Add-on" or "Rebuy" parts.  I'll have to consider it.  I feel like these could really be covered with different buy-in profiles.  But I know people play their own way, and even if they can buy a player in for twice the cost and receive twice the chips, they'd rather have the player buy-in for normal cost and also rebuy before the tournament starts.

    FYI, here's another post on the same topic for some additional insight: http://www.thetournamentdirector.net/forums/index.php?topic=183.0

    Thanks for the ideas.  It really does help to hear how different people use the software.  Keep 'em coming.

    no_hoper

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    Re: Streamline the buy-in process
    « Reply #10 on: February 01, 2012, 06:12:49 PM »
    So here's what I propose: the current dialogs stay as they are, with the exception that I'll be adding the profile selections.  Then I'll add a new dialog, yet to be named but we'll call it "Mass Buy-in" dialog for now.  I'm thinking this will have two sections: one lists the "Available" players (as the "Add Players" dialog does today), and the second section lists the players whom you have "Bought-in", along with their buy-in profile.  A "New Player" button would open the "New Player" dialog (leaving the "Mass Buy-in" dialog open underneath).  The "New Player" dialog would have the addition of the buy-in panel, so the player could be added and bought-in simultaneously.  Once the "OK" button is pressed on the "New Player" dialog, the player is added to the "Available" section in the "Mass Buy-in" dialog, or to the "Bought-in" section, if they were bought-in on the "New Player" dialog.  Players can be removed from the "Bought-in" section at any time.

    I think this is an excellent approach.  The current Add Player/Buyin dialogs for the stragglers you need to add during the game and a new panel for pre-game registration.  That would eliminate a ton of repetitious key strokes and mouse clicks.
    Having buy-in details on the New Player dialog is possibly redundant (and less code to maintain for you) but it's 50/50 i.e. as long as when you return from the New Player dialog back to the mass buy-in (Registration?) dialog, the new player is visible and selected in the 'Available' section.  Like I said, it's a toss up.  If you make the New Player dialog a modal action from the current Add Player/Buy-in dialogs and have the new player thrown into the list on return then you don't need buyin details on the New Player dialog for that either.


    The "Mass Buy-in" dialog will have buttons "OK" (or maybe it should be "Commit"), "Clear" (or "Reset") and "Close".  Notice no "Cancel" button.  The idea being if one wants to start over, they press "Clear", and after confirmation, all players are removed from the "Bought-in" section.  But pressing "Close" only closes the dialog.  By pressing the button to open the "Mass Buy-in" dialog again, all settings remain.  The buy-ins don't actually occur until the dialog is "committed" ("OK" is pressed).  So, if I open the "Mass Buy-in" dialog and buy-in 12 players, they're not really bought-in yet, they're just "ready to buy-in".  If I then press "Close", then open the "Mass Buy-in" dialog again, the same 12 players will be in the "Bought-in" section.

    Perfect.

    I'm not sure whether or not I would want to add the "Add-on" or "Rebuy" parts.  I'll have to consider it.  I feel like these could really be covered with different buy-in profiles.  But I know people play their own way, and even if they can buy a player in for twice the cost and receive twice the chips, they'd rather have the player buy-in for normal cost and also rebuy before the tournament starts.

    You're right.  Buyin profiles would work just as well though I can see I'll end up having to create a lot of them (I host a lot different game formats)...c'est la vie.

    With regards to rebuys, addons, bonuses etc. I always like to have an accurate display of the total prize pool, number of buy-ins, rebuys and addons on my screens.  Aside from the fact that raked home games are illegal here in our county, the players can see exactly what goes into the pot and that we're not skimming anything off the top.  I've been to many games  (in card rooms and home games)  and I always do the math (so I know my players do too) and feel cheated when I see the house over-raking the pot.  Besides, I got tired of being asked "How many rebuys were there?", 30 times a day when I didn't display everything.  My point being, keeping buyins separate from rebuys, addons, bounties, etc provides visibility and transparency. I don't really care how the numbers get there as long as they are accurate.  If a rebuy is $60 for 3,000 in chips then I don't mind entering $120 for 6,000 as long as the system knows I just did 2 rebuys and recognizes if I make a mistake (eg. $120 for 4,000). 


    ...So I guess we'll be seeing all this in v3.1.2, sometime next week?
    (just kidding...  ::))

    Corey Cooper

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    Re: Streamline the buy-in process
    « Reply #11 on: February 02, 2012, 10:38:10 AM »
    Quote
    ...So I guess we'll be seeing all this in v3.1.2, sometime next week?
    (just kidding...  )

    LOL.  I probably won't do much more than think about this through next week.  I really want to do some more brainstorming on this concept to determine what's going to be the best, most useful, most efficient way to do this.  I'm thinking of this now more as a "Buy-in Console" - a dialog that you can open and do everything you need related to adding/creating players and buying them into the tournament without ever having to close.  I would like it to work such that the only reason you have to close it is because you are done, or because you have to do something completely unrelated, like modify the blinds schedule or change something about the layout.

    Quote
    If a rebuy is $60 for 3,000 in chips then I don't mind entering $120 for 6,000 as long as the system knows I just did 2 rebuys and recognizes if I make a mistake (eg. $120 for 4,000).

    What I really was referring to is an older argument about whether a buy-in for $60 and an immediate rebuy for $60 is really a buy-in plus a rebuy.  To me, it's a buy-in for a higher cost and receiving more chips.  OR, it's a buy-in and then an add-on.  This also gets to the point of whether or not one can rebuy if they aren't busted out.  Personally, I argue you cannot rebuy while in the tournament.  I don't mean YOU can't, or one cannot do this in MY tournaments, I mean if you allow this, you're not really allowing an in-tourney rebuy, the player is buying an add-on.

    But as I said, everyone does things differently.  No sense in fighting over semantics.