Author Topic: Prizes Mysteriously Changed  (Read 1892 times)

T-Bone

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Prizes Mysteriously Changed
« on: January 02, 2012, 11:45:20 AM »
During my most recent tournament I had prizes set to Automatic with an override to pay two places (65%-35%). About two hours in I noticed the prize amounts had changed. During a break I checked to see if my settings had changed and they hadn't. A few minutes ago I decided to have a look at that completed tournament. I checked and there was still an override to pay two places. I fired up the calculator and discovered that the actual payout had changed to 70%-30% without any indication anywhere in TD. So, while the prizes were set to 65-35 the software was showing a 70-30 split on the tournament & player ranking screens. I canceled the override and then re-implemented it and payouts changed to the proper 65-35. Any idea what may have happened?

(God, I hope this makes sense. ;D)
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Magic_fubu

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Re: Prizes Mysteriously Changed
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2012, 11:47:39 AM »
If there were any changes in the monies involved, that's most likely what's causing it - every time the total pot changes, it's going to automatically recalculate the prizes, which is going to mess it up on you. I believe, however, that if you lock the prizes once set, that it shouldn't redo them.
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T-Bone

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Re: Prizes Mysteriously Changed
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2012, 11:54:49 AM »
No change whatsoever in the total prize pool--it was the same from start to finish.
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jodybingo

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Re: Prizes Mysteriously Changed
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2012, 01:28:49 PM »
I had/have this same problem. There are 2 solutions
1- After setting your prizes click Automatic Prizes (on the prizes tab) and uncheck the Automatic Prizes radio button.
or
2- Write down your prizes on paper then create new prize and enter the rank and amount from there.

Option 1 is a lot easier and quicker.
Jody
jodystacey.com/td

Corey Cooper

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Re: Prizes Mysteriously Changed
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2012, 10:19:39 AM »
During my most recent tournament I had prizes set to Automatic with an override to pay two places (65%-35%).

By "override" do you mean you had two prizes that were locked?

About two hours in I noticed the prize amounts had changed. During a break I checked to see if my settings had changed and they hadn't.

This is what "Automatic Prizes" is all about.  They may change when tournament conditions change.

A few minutes ago I decided to have a look at that completed tournament. I checked and there was still an override to pay two places. I fired up the calculator and discovered that the actual payout had changed to 70%-30% without any indication anywhere in TD. So, while the prizes were set to 65-35 the software was showing a 70-30 split on the tournament & player ranking screens.

By "changed" do you mean that the prizes on the Prizes tab now said the recipient would receive 70% of the prize pool, or did it still say 65% but your calculations showed the TD's computed amount was really 70%?  Was the "share leftover" option checked for that prize?

I canceled the override and then re-implemented it and payouts changed to the proper 65-35. Any idea what may have happened?

(God, I hope this makes sense. ;D)

Did you happen to set an Estimated Pot?

jodybingo

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Re: Prizes Mysteriously Changed
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2012, 11:41:05 AM »
I had/have this same problem Corey. If my staff does not lock the prizes they will revert back to what the Automatic Prizes determined they be and caused us to lose all adjustments. We then started locking the prizes and they no longer were changed HOWEVER, TD would then post (on the prizes tab and in my layout) a second set of prizes.
If we paid 5 spots and adjusted the amounts then locked them, at a certain point during the tournament TD would create 1st through 5th again and create prizes based on the amount leftover. The prizes would show 1st to 5th at $0 then 1st to 5th with the prizes we locked. I posted a few months ago that I had witnessed when TD did this. It was after busting a player out (which should not have affected the prize pool) Since then I instruct my staff to uncheck the Automatic Prizes after setting the prizes

Corey Cooper

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Re: Prizes Mysteriously Changed
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2012, 01:41:36 PM »
Ahhh, this makes more sense.  OK, I see what I was missing before.

Locking a prize prevents the Automatic Prizes feature from deleting the prize.  Notice I used the work "delete" and not "overwrite".  There is a subtle distinction here and it is important, and it implies something I was missing before.

When the Automatic Prizes feature kicks in (based on some change in your tournament), it deletes all currently configured prizes, except those that are locked.  It then determines the prizes it needs to create based on the Automatic Prizes configuration file.  It creates those prizes and adds them to the current prizes (which will be either an empty list, or a list of locked prizes).

"Overwrite" implies (to me) that if the Automatic Prizes will create a new 1st place prize, it will "overwrite" an existing 1st place prize.  This further implies that if you lock the existing 1st place prize, the Automatic Prizes feature will not delete it, and also will not create a new 1st place prize (because one already exists).  This is not the case.  You are allowed to create as many prizes as you want, and award them how you want.  So, you could conceivably create as many 1st place prizes as you want.  If you lock your 1st place prize and the Automatic Prizes feature is triggered, you should get another 1st place prize (you will now have two 1st place prizes).

If you reach a prize level that you're happy with, the solution is to disable the Automatic Prizes feature (or, with version 3, you can override the currently selected prize level and select the one you want).

T-Bone

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Re: Prizes Mysteriously Changed
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2012, 03:38:37 PM »
Let me try it this way:

1. Setup tournament w/no rebuys
2. On Prizes tab selected Automatic, Configure, Override, 5-7 Players (1st 65%, 2nd 35%). It is my understanding--and it has worked in the past--this will pay two places no matter how many buy-ins. Prizes were not locked.
3. When all players had bought in and game started, both tournament screen and prizes tab displayed 1st $198, 2nd $106.
4. Between first and second break I noticed tournament screen was displaying 1st $213 2nd $91
5. During break I checked prizes tab where it displayed 1st 65% $213 2nd 35% $91. Huh, methinks, maybe I just dreamed I saw $198 & $106.
6. I pay winner $213 and second $91.
7. Next day I calculate those payouts are 70% and 30% (which does not exist in my automatic configuration).
8. Open completed tournament, go to prizes tab where it now shows status is automatic and 1st 70% $213 and 2nd 30% $91. Again, there is no 70-30 split in my automatic configuration file.
9. On prizes tab select Automatic, Configure, Cancel Override, Override, 5-7 Players (1st 65%, 2nd 35%), OK and prizes change to 1st 65% $198 and 2nd 35% $106.
10. There were no events between the start of the tournament and when I noticed prizes had changed that should have any impact on automatic prizes. The only events in that time period were one break and one bust-out.

What think you now?
If it ain't naked, deep-fried or poker-related, I ain't interested!

Corey Cooper

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Re: Prizes Mysteriously Changed
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2012, 04:45:16 PM »
OK, a couple of real quick points.  I did find a bug here, but I don't think it has any real affect, particularly nothing like you are describing.  Prizes tab -> Automatic -> Configure -> Override -> select prize level -> OK -> OK.  The prize list on the Prizes tab is updated to reflect the new prizes, but the computed prize values were $0.  They showed as $0 in the Game window as well.  Clearly an update should happen here and is not.  However, I next bought in a new player and the values immediately updated to reflect the correct amounts.

There were no events between the start of the tournament and when I noticed prizes had changed that should have any impact on automatic prizes. The only events in that time period were one break and one bust-out.

While this may have been true in version 2, pretty much everything can affect Automatic Prizes in version 3.  This is because this feature allows for more than just the number of buy-ins to control the prize list.  The prize level can be selected via a formula, which could use the time of day if it wanted to.  Your Automatic prizes may not have been configured that way, but the software was still checking constantly.

I've read and re-read your description, and what it boils down to (for me) is this:

- The prizes displayed on the Prizes tab that they were 65% and 35%, and with a pot of $304, the prizes were correctly computed to be $198 and $106 (rounded).
- At some point, the prize values changed to $213 and $91, which just happens to be 70% and 30% (rounded).  The values were $213 and $91 both on the Prizes tab and in the Game window.  However, the Prizes tab still said the prizes should be 65% and 35% (or maybe you didn't notice if they had changed or not?)
- Upon discovering this the following day, you load the saved tournament and the Prizes tab still has the values of the prizes as $213 and $91, but it NOW has changed the percentages to be 70% and 30%.

What think you now?

I have no idea.  "Mysterious" is a good way to describe it, especially if there's nowhere in your configuration that has 70% and 30%.  It's very odd that the program would default to those exact values.  The Automatic Prizes feature got considerably more complicated in version 3, so it's pretty easy to believe there will be some bugs.  I can't imagine at this point how what you've described could happen, so it's difficult to even know where to begin.

T-Bone

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Re: Prizes Mysteriously Changed
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2012, 07:19:45 AM »
It is possible that when I checked the prizes tab I was expecting to see 65% & 35% and didn't catch they were divided 70-30.

Here are the final prizes and my autoprizes configuration. If you can figure out where 70-30 came from, I owe you a bottle of Kentucky whiskey (Knob Creek is my favorite...you may be a Maker's Mark man).
If it ain't naked, deep-fried or poker-related, I ain't interested!

Corey Cooper

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Re: Prizes Mysteriously Changed
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2012, 10:45:42 AM »
Well, what is interesting is that the default autoPrizes.xml file has the second level of prizes as 70% & 30%.  So I wonder if it shows that it is using C:\Program Files (x86)\The Tournament Director 2\lib\autoPrizes.xml, but is really using a different file.

Can you edit that file with Notepad and see what the second level of prizes shows?  Or post it here?  Also, on Preferences tab -> Config Files -> Prizes files -> Automatic Prizes Configuration, what is configured there?  (Should be the same.)

T-Bone

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Re: Prizes Mysteriously Changed
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2012, 11:36:41 AM »
Here you go:
If it ain't naked, deep-fried or poker-related, I ain't interested!