Author Topic: New Players  (Read 1841 times)

jodybingo

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New Players
« on: January 03, 2011, 07:06:40 PM »
When adding a New Player to my tournament, I need an option on the dialog box to buy-in players. When I have a new player (not in my database), I have to enter their name then search for their name again on my screen to buy them in.
And
Can I also have an option which, during registration, does not leave one table short handed and another table full? Like the player disparity on tables during tournament, a player disparity during registration?
Thanks
Jody
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 07:13:01 PM by jodybingo »

Magic_fubu

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Re: New Players
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2011, 08:13:17 PM »
i agree the buy in with the new player reg would be nice. As far as the table balancing goes, the algorithm (as i came to understand) doesn't know exactly how many people will be coming to the tourney, so there is no real way to have it auto balance pre-tourney, unless you're at the end of the reg period. Then you could just use the 'suggest movement' feature.
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Corey Cooper

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Re: New Players
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2011, 10:29:19 AM »
When adding a New Player to my tournament, I need an option on the dialog box to buy-in players. When I have a new player (not in my database), I have to enter their name then search for their name again on my screen to buy them in.

I'll put it on the list.

As far as the table balancing goes, the algorithm (as i came to understand) doesn't know exactly how many people will be coming to the tourney, so there is no real way to have it auto balance pre-tourney, unless you're at the end of the reg period. Then you could just use the 'suggest movement' feature.

Exactly.  How can the Auto Seat feature properly balance the tables while "randomly" seating players, if it doesn't know how many players will ultimately be playing?  If instead of being completely random, it filled one table (randomly), then filled another, then it wouldn't be random overall (the first 8 registrants, for example, would all be at the same table).  And that would elicit complaints as well.

Corey Cooper

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Re: New Players
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2011, 10:33:39 AM »
I was thinking that I could add an optional setting next to the "Auto Seat" checkbox that allows you to enter an expected number of players.  That could allow the Auto Seat feature to better isolate players to a select set of tables.  Leaving the input blank would mean the same behavior as today, which is randomly seating the player at any available seat.

So the argument to this idea is that, if you know how many people you are expecting, why not just set up your tables accordingly?  Then seating a player randomly at any seat would be appropriate.

Thoughts?

Magic_fubu

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Re: New Players
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2011, 10:58:57 AM »
I was thinking that I could add an optional setting next to the "Auto Seat" checkbox that allows you to enter an expected number of players.  That could allow the Auto Seat feature to better isolate players to a select set of tables.  Leaving the input blank would mean the same behavior as today, which is randomly seating the player at any available seat.

So the argument to this idea is that, if you know how many people you are expecting, why not just set up your tables accordingly?  Then seating a player randomly at any seat would be appropriate.

Thoughts?
I have an idea that I think is along what Jody's looking for (and which would help me, too). Say there's 5 tables able to hold 9 players (45 total). How hard would it be to implement into the algorithm for it to say something like "have i placed a player at each player? If yes, reset the count, and place at random table, random seat. If no, look at a table that's empty, and place at an empty seat there." Kind of like how I used to do seating with numbered chips - we'd have numbers 1 to 40, representing seats 1-10 at 4 tables. I would then spread them out, and then select a chip from the first table, then 2nd, 3rd, 4th, then start over with 1st table, and once I had them all "sorted" into a random seating, I would then hand them out to the players as they would register.

EDIT - So in essence with my 5x9 situation, it could seat T1 S7 (Table 1, Seat 7), then T4 S2, T2 S8, T5 S4, T3 S1, then reset in its mind to think no tables have been used in the 'round of seating', to be able to go to T3 S6, T2 S2, etc... Instead of (sometimes) filling one table up completely before seating a player at one of the other available tables.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 12:59:09 PM by Magic_fubu »
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Corey Cooper

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Re: New Players
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2011, 02:31:24 PM »
Well, my first argument is that this isn't random.  It's basically the opposite of filling one table at a time.  Assume you had 10 tables of 10 players each.  Instead of the first 10 players who buy into the tournament seated together at a table (albeit in random seats at that table), the first 10 players would be guaranteed to NOT be at the same table.  More specifically, any of the first 10 players would not be at a seat with another player from the first 10 players.  In fact this could be manipulated. If 2 people were in a physical line to buy-in and wanted to sit at the same table, player 2 could step out of line until enough other players got in line after player 1, then player 2 could get back in line.

Regardless of that, "spreading the players out" in this fashion will still end up in the same state as the completely random Auto Seat feature does today.  Either you've got enough seats or you've got too many.  If you've got enough seats, you're not going to have to move anyone around after everyone buys in.  If you've got too many seats, you've spread them over too many tables and you're going to have to move players before the tournament starts.  In fact, spreading players out evenly like this virtually guarantees you'll have to move players before starting the tournament, whereas a completely random seating of the players could by chance fill up several tables and leave several empty (or with fewer players) such that no movement or little movement is necessary before starting the tournament.

jodybingo

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Re: New Players
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2011, 05:00:01 PM »
It is not a necessary function. I had this function built into a database I previously used to track my players and seating. This was done because we all9owed late registration and it happened on a few occasions where one table was full (10 players) and another table had only 5 players. While we placed 10 stacks on each table at the start of each tournament for late registrations, the table with only 5 players seated complained they were shorthanded with another table full. (I saw no merit to this complaint because the un-manned stacks were blinded out quicker and an advantage to the other players of that table). However we still had a function incorporated into our program to verify all the other tables and not allow one table to have 3 fewer players than the table with the most players.
Again, it is not a necessary feature and if I am the only one facing this (which is not a regular occurrence) then don't put this on your list.
Just for your bragging rights...my employer has purchased the Genesis (Bravo) gaming system. I made a strong push to use TD2 in our house instead of Genesis. When my bosses saw the power of TD2, they allowed me to use TD2 on a permanent basis.

Corey Cooper

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Re: New Players
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2011, 10:53:09 AM »
It is not a necessary function. I had this function built into a database I previously used to track my players and seating. This was done because we all9owed late registration and it happened on a few occasions where one table was full (10 players) and another table had only 5 players. While we placed 10 stacks on each table at the start of each tournament for late registrations, the table with only 5 players seated complained they were shorthanded with another table full. (I saw no merit to this complaint because the un-manned stacks were blinded out quicker and an advantage to the other players of that table).

I can see a little merit to it.  The tables didn't have fewer players, just fewer actively participating players.  Therefore, the blinds don't go around any faster, which would be the chief complaint.  However, those tables would likely see more hands than the other tables, since half the table is blinding in and folding immediately.  One might see that as a plus or a minus.

However we still had a function incorporated into our program to verify all the other tables and not allow one table to have 3 fewer players than the table with the most players.
Again, it is not a necessary feature and if I am the only one facing this (which is not a regular occurrence) then don't put this on your list.

Honestly I haven't been able to think of a good way to implement this, so to be honest even if I thought it was a feature many people would use, I wouldn't know how to add it...

Just for your bragging rights...my employer has purchased the Genesis (Bravo) gaming system. I made a strong push to use TD2 in our house instead of Genesis. When my bosses saw the power of TD2, they allowed me to use TD2 on a permanent basis.

That's awesome.  :)  Thanks for sharing.

Stuart Murray

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Re: New Players
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2011, 12:15:03 PM »
Interesting we had a discussion about tables with vacant players recently on the TDA forum, and our final conclusion was that players at a table with absent players are at no better a disadvantage nor advantage than any other table, and that random draws are just that - random - it is the luck of the draw where those pre-registered players are seated. Any attempt at de-randomising a seating draw by way of pre-programmed variables in my eyes, obliterates the purpose of the system, and would make me question the validity of such a program feature.  Thats why we as card-room managers are paid so well, to be the vital link in setting up, registering and running tournaments.  I only use the first draw of TD, after that it is all manual consolidation and balancing that transpires, because it is the fairest and most random method of doing it.

Regards
Stuart
Stuart Murray

Corey Cooper

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Re: New Players
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2011, 02:58:42 PM »
Any attempt at de-randomising a seating draw by way of pre-programmed variables in my eyes, obliterates the purpose of the system, and would make me question the validity of such a program feature.

Precisely.

Having said that, I think there are certain tweaks to a pure system that are completely acceptable, particularly to less serious players.  A professional player may balk at a tweak to the initial random draw, but that might be important when you are fighting for every advantage you can get.  At the tournaments I've played in, most people could care less.  But that's the difference between a professional tournament and an at home/amateur/for fun/casual tournament.