Poll

Who should get credit for Busting a player out?

1st Hitman
4 (21.1%)
Last Hitman
5 (26.3%)
Both
10 (52.6%)

Total Members Voted: 18

Author Topic: Hitmen when there are Rebuys  (Read 6128 times)

brenner

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Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« on: July 10, 2006, 04:48:46 PM »
I am not sure who to give credit to. Thanks for your feedback. How about when there is a bounty?
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lethargicdolt

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Re: Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2006, 07:26:25 PM »
IMO a re-buy is no different than someone starting a game from the beginning. The player has to be beaten and in this case twice. Each time he is beaten, everyone moves a little closer to victory. I have been in 55 player tournaments when completed, the winner has actually beaten a pool of 140 or more due to rebuys. Ultimately the winner has to beat everyone and a player should be credited for every person he knocks out.
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hawklight

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Re: Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2006, 06:02:12 AM »
Nope - I believe a hitman should be accredited only when they have knocked someone out of the tourney.

That person who you then beat in an all-in may not have pushed in there had it been a freezeout tourney. Also, just 'cos you beat someone in a hand, if they are still in the tourney afterwards 'cos of a rebuiy then they aint out - end of story. In that situation it is no different to just having won a pot from a player and leaving them some chips which is in reality what a rebuy tourney emulates when someone rebuys.

At the end of the day if a player is in a tourney then they havent been knocked out. Simple as that.

:-)

$lick_ghost

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Re: Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2006, 08:54:19 AM »
I disagree...

Everytime someone busts, whether it be their first time, or after their rebuy, you've still effectively eliminated one full entry fees worth of chips...

I say 'hit' for every bust-out... not just your final bust.

MooseWizard

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Re: Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2006, 11:05:34 AM »
I'll agree with you fellas that every hit counts.  The reason you are awarding points to hitmen is because knocking players out requires skill (usually--sometimes it's luck) that should be rewarded.

Why in the world would you make that 'reward' dependent on if the player wants to rebuy?  You're giving the player power over the person who eliminated them!

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$lick_ghost

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Re: Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2006, 12:00:31 PM »
I'll agree with you fellas that every hit counts.  The reason you are awarding points to hitmen is because knocking players out requires skill (usually--sometimes it's luck) that should be rewarded.

Why in the world would you make that 'reward' dependent on if the player wants to rebuy?  You're giving the player power over the person who eliminated them!



exactly.

Player A gets busted out by a buddy, decides to not rebuy, buddy gets credit for the hit.

Player B gets busted out by someone he's not too fond of. Rebuys out of spite, no hit for the other guy.

'Conditional' hits (which is what they'd be if only the final bust counted as a hit) would lead to situations like this. Giving out the hit EVERY bust prevents anything like this from happening.

hawklight

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Re: Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2006, 05:33:10 AM »
Sorry fellas - still disagree.....

If someone rebuys to spite a hit point out of a potential hitman then so be it. I suspect this is unlikely as most people (not all, granted) in a rebuy have some sort of budget before they play - either just a generic "I am willing to do x number of rebuys then I'm out", or "I will keep rebuying until the amount of chips a rebuy brings is a major disadvantage, or the return on my rebuy investment now is poor given the likely payouts". The fella that decides to rebuy when he would have normally quit to spite someone can't occur that often can it? Maybe my tourneys are happier affairs :-)

My point is simply that a person is not "out" if they rebuy - for whatever reason they rebuy. Of course, once the rebuy period ends then it makes no difference. But during the rebuy period, knocking someone out of a tourney more often than not is based more on gambling than skill as people gamble more (quite rightly) to try and amass chips. So the credit for getting someone to rebuy isn't that worthy of adulation (IMHO) - knock them out and sure give 'em a hitpoint.

I do hear what you are saying, but is it really worth keeping a record of who won a dominant all-in situation when there was no actual knockout (which is really what you are suggesting - to record the fact that a bigger chip stack beat a smaller chip stack in an all-in situation without knocking them out)? If there is, then fair enough, but I would then suggest a different field to record that (maybe "All-ins Won") - to me a "hit" denotes a knock out in the true sense. Or maybe just give just 0.5 a hit point when the victim chooses to rebuy? That way you still get some credit, even if you are spited by an misguided rebuy

$lick_ghost

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Re: Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2006, 08:51:49 AM »
Sorry fellas - still disagree.....

If someone rebuys to spite a hit point out of a potential hitman then so be it. I suspect this is unlikely as most people (not all, granted) in a rebuy have some sort of budget before they play - either just a generic "I am willing to do x number of rebuys then I'm out", or "I will keep rebuying until the amount of chips a rebuy brings is a major disadvantage, or the return on my rebuy investment now is poor given the likely payouts". The fella that decides to rebuy when he would have normally quit to spite someone can't occur that often can it? Maybe my tourneys are happier affairs :-)

My point is simply that a person is not "out" if they rebuy - for whatever reason they rebuy. Of course, once the rebuy period ends then it makes no difference. But during the rebuy period, knocking someone out of a tourney more often than not is based more on gambling than skill as people gamble more (quite rightly) to try and amass chips. So the credit for getting someone to rebuy isn't that worthy of adulation (IMHO) - knock them out and sure give 'em a hitpoint.

I do hear what you are saying, but is it really worth keeping a record of who won a dominant all-in situation when there was no actual knockout (which is really what you are suggesting - to record the fact that a bigger chip stack beat a smaller chip stack in an all-in situation without knocking them out)? If there is, then fair enough, but I would then suggest a different field to record that (maybe "All-ins Won") - to me a "hit" denotes a knock out in the true sense. Or maybe just give just 0.5 a hit point when the victim chooses to rebuy? That way you still get some credit, even if you are spited by an misguided rebuy

I only give 0.5 points per hit as it is  ;D

lethargicdolt

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Re: Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2006, 12:58:54 PM »
We don't have re-buys. When you are gone, you are gone. Still believe that when you knock someone out, you have removed that amount of chips from play (in essence one player). As far as gambling and knocking someone out, during the course of the evening there will be many races that boil down to getting your money in with hopefully the best hand and odds.

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theHammer

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Re: Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« Reply #9 on: October 15, 2006, 04:13:23 PM »
Sorry fellas - still disagree.....

If someone rebuys to spite a hit point out of a potential hitman then so be it. I suspect this is unlikely as most people (not all, granted) in a rebuy have some sort of budget before they play - either just a generic "I am willing to do x number of rebuys then I'm out", or "I will keep rebuying until the amount of chips a rebuy brings is a major disadvantage, or the return on my rebuy investment now is poor given the likely payouts". The fella that decides to rebuy when he would have normally quit to spite someone can't occur that often can it? Maybe my tourneys are happier affairs :-)

My point is simply that a person is not "out" if they rebuy - for whatever reason they rebuy. Of course, once the rebuy period ends then it makes no difference. But during the rebuy period, knocking someone out of a tourney more often than not is based more on gambling than skill as people gamble more (quite rightly) to try and amass chips. So the credit for getting someone to rebuy isn't that worthy of adulation (IMHO) - knock them out and sure give 'em a hitpoint.

I do hear what you are saying, but is it really worth keeping a record of who won a dominant all-in situation when there was no actual knockout (which is really what you are suggesting - to record the fact that a bigger chip stack beat a smaller chip stack in an all-in situation without knocking them out)? If there is, then fair enough, but I would then suggest a different field to record that (maybe "All-ins Won") - to me a "hit" denotes a knock out in the true sense. Or maybe just give just 0.5 a hit point when the victim chooses to rebuy? That way you still get some credit, even if you are spited by an misguided rebuy

Couldn't disagree more.  A hit is a hit is a hit.  If a dude rebuys, he is now a "new man" with new life, no different than a person showing up late and buying in for the first time.  Late man eliminated would count; why not the "new man"?

If I knock you out - I did my job.  Your choosing to rebuy is something that I have no control of.  I get credit for what I do.  Period.

hawklight

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Re: Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2006, 03:53:35 AM »
Don't entirely agree. Rebuy tourney strategy is to gamble more in a bid to accumulate chips without risk of knockout, i.e. treat the rebuy period much the same as a cash game.

If the tourney was a freezeout people (who can play properly) will behave differently and not gamble anywhere near as much as they do in a rebuy (generally speaking). So yes, you have technically knocked someone out - but if the same situation arose in a freezeout that person is less likely to have called (or raised) "all in". Naturally, if you both have big cards the result may well have been an all-in scenario, but in a freezeout those scenarios occur a lot less frequently in early stages. In a rebuy there is often all-ins with Ace-rag.

I guess what I am saying is that I agree with you in a sense, however, to us in our rebuys, a player is not knocked out until they leave the tourney - either cos they chose not to rebuy in the rebuy period, or they were knocked in the freezeout bit.

We also do double chance freezeouts which is a bit between a rebuy tourney and a freezeout tourney. They get 8000 chips for their 100 buyin (or whatever), but only receive 4000 of it. If they go all in and lose they get their other 4000 chips. After 90 mins at the first break, all those that haven't asked for their last 4000 get them then. This allows for one failed all-in before going out (hence double chance). Players if they choose can have their 8000 all up front but by doing so remove their double chance option. The point is, here too if you win against another player all in - you have not knocked them out either - especially as they don't have to dig into their pockets to stay in.

So whilst you say a hit is a hit (which I agree with) a hit is not necessarily a knock out. A knockout is a knockout

Just my opinion you understand.....

 :)

theHammer

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Re: Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2006, 02:01:50 PM »
Understood.

But it brings me to a larger (TD-type) question: In the formula crediting process, I believe TD only credits points for a "knockout" (e.g. - only awards points if the player does not rebuy, or is beyond the buy-in period).

Is there a way - in a formula - to award points for both rebought and non-rebought "hits"?  And the stats reflecting ALL hits?

theHammer

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Re: Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2006, 02:04:47 PM »
Just dawned on me - this may require a more exact definition of "Hit" and "Knockout" -- perhaps 2 colums shown in stats (one for each).

???

$lick_ghost

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Re: Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2006, 12:43:23 PM »
Understood.

But it brings me to a larger (TD-type) question: In the formula crediting process, I believe TD only credits points for a "knockout" (e.g. - only awards points if the player does not rebuy, or is beyond the buy-in period).

Is there a way - in a formula - to award points for both rebought and non-rebought "hits"?  And the stats reflecting ALL hits?


Well TD considers them ALL hits. When you hit 'X', select a hitman, then the option rebuy comes up.

Point being, a hit is a hit is a hit ;)

theHammer

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Re: Hitmen when there are Rebuys
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2006, 03:00:20 PM »
Understood.

But it brings me to a larger (TD-type) question: In the formula crediting process, I believe TD only credits points for a "knockout" (e.g. - only awards points if the player does not rebuy, or is beyond the buy-in period).

Is there a way - in a formula - to award points for both rebought and non-rebought "hits"? And the stats reflecting ALL hits?


Well TD considers them ALL hits. When you hit 'X', select a hitman, then the option rebuy comes up.

Point being, a hit is a hit is a hit ;)

Not sure TD DOES consider them all hits.  I realize that when you hit "X", select a hitman and the rebuy option comes up, it appears that it would record the Hitman even if the rebuy takes place.  But my Stats show otherwise; i.e. - I have a 16 player tourney, and Stats show a collective 15 hits during the night - but including the rebuys, there were MORE than 15 hits.  So I'm thinking that TD does NOT consider "a hit is a hit is a hit".