Author Topic: All In raise  (Read 6255 times)

famous58

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All In raise
« on: November 06, 2008, 05:23:57 PM »
For some reason this has come up like three times in the last couple games.  Here's the scenario:

Player A bets $20.
Player B goes all-in for $30.
Player C wants to raise...can he or must he only call $30?  I say he can raise what ever he wants as long as it is at least $40 (since the $30 all-in was an incomplete bet).  Lately though there are those who say player C can not raise and can only call or fold. 

I do know that had Player C only called $30 then Player A can not reraise.

Phaze

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Re: All In raise
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2008, 07:09:35 PM »
This came up when I went to a tournament with a lot of well organized players and I believe there may be a ruling like that, but I'm unsure of how it works correctly... If people are wondering what the heck the difference is, it was this: buddy would call only if he knew other people behind him couldn't re-raise it because the betting was capped, or something like that... something to look into anyways

badbeat

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Re: All In raise
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2008, 12:42:26 AM »
As I understand it, if a player has already acted, they can only call or fold, but if a player has yet to act, they have the choice to fold, call or reraise.

skelly82

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Re: All In raise
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2008, 07:15:00 AM »
In this situation I would let player C call, fold or re-raise any amount (as long as it is double the previous bet).  This give Player C the chance to buy player A out of the pot by going all in as well. The call is down to the dealer but if they ask for a ruling then I would stick with the dealers choice 100% of the time.

Just my 2 Cents
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LaDD

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Re: All In raise
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2008, 10:40:04 AM »
For some reason this has come up like three times in the last couple games.  Here's the scenario:

Player A bets $20.
Player B goes all-in for $30.
Player C wants to raise...can he or must he only call $30?  I say he can raise what ever he wants as long as it is at least $40 (since the $30 all-in was an incomplete bet).  Lately though there are those who say player C can not raise and can only call or fold. 

I do know that had Player C only called $30 then Player A can not reraise.

You´re right. Player C can raise. After a raise and nobody follows, the play will be only for the 30$, but C always has the right to raise.

Phaze

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Re: All In raise
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2008, 12:23:04 PM »
For some reason this has come up like three times in the last couple games.  Here's the scenario:

Player A bets $20.
Player B goes all-in for $30.
Player C wants to raise...can he or must he only call $30?  I say he can raise what ever he wants as long as it is at least $40 (since the $30 all-in was an incomplete bet).  Lately though there are those who say player C can not raise and can only call or fold. 

I do know that had Player C only called $30 then Player A can not reraise.

You´re right. Player C can raise. After a raise and nobody follows, the play will be only for the 30$, but C always has the right to raise.

LaDD is correct I believe... here is a better scenario for capping an all in raise:

Player A bets $20
Player B calls $20
Player C is all in for $30

Players A and B cannot re-raise because of player C not being able to raise a sufficient amount... this is important for player A because he needs to know if there is a chance of player B going over the top after player A calls... this is more important when the blinds are steeper and the stacks are getting very valuable...

Whether or not this scenario is covered under the rules, I don't know... I know it was a topic during a game I played and even then there was uncertainty in the actual rule... the TD said that a re-raise could be called in after and thus person in Player A's position decided to fold because he didn't want to get pot commited or figured that he was vulnurable to Player B's hand and needed to see the flop before committing a large portion of his stack

MattBurlew

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Re: All In raise
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2008, 05:56:19 PM »
The above isn't quite true.  In the above scenario, player A & B can re-raise, because player C's raise was at least 50% of the previous raise (in this case it was exactly 50%).

See http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/chapter13-14.php#14


EDIT: Above is incorrect, see rest of thread.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2008, 07:42:22 PM by MattBurlew »

badbeat

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Re: All In raise
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2008, 07:19:22 PM »
The above isn't quite true.  In the above scenario, player A & B can re-raise, because player C's raise was at least 50% of the previous raise (in this case it was exactly 50%).

See http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/chapter13-14.php#14

I followed your link and it contradicts what you stated :

3. All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. Example: Player A bets 100 and player B raises to 200. Player C wishing to raise must raise at least 100 more, making the total bet at least 3. A player who has already checked or called may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)


MattBurlew

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Re: All In raise
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2008, 07:41:49 PM »
The above isn't quite true.  In the above scenario, player A & B can re-raise, because player C's raise was at least 50% of the previous raise (in this case it was exactly 50%).

See http://www.lasvegasvegas.com/poker/chapter13-14.php#14

I followed your link and it contradicts what you stated :

3. All raises must be equal to or greater than the size of the previous bet or raise on that betting round, except for an all-in wager. Example: Player A bets 100 and player B raises to 200. Player C wishing to raise must raise at least 100 more, making the total bet at least 3. A player who has already checked or called may not subsequently raise an all-in bet that is less than the full size of the last bet or raise. (The half-the-size rule for reopening the betting is for limit poker only.)




I missed that last part initially.  It does look like that you are right and I am wrong.

See: http://www.thehendonmob.com/tournament_director3/can_i_raise and  http://www.thehendonmob.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=151905#151905 for a discussion on various scenarios.


So, following on the example:

Player A bets $20
Player B bets $20
Player C raises to $X all-in

If X is between $20.01 and $39.99 inclusive, then A and B can not re-raise.

Phaze

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Re: All In raise
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2008, 03:23:18 AM »
cool, thanks for the links and clarification there Matt... its a good to know rule

OutOfCrown

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Re: All In raise
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2008, 07:53:55 PM »
In my experience, the best way to understand this is to understand that IN NO LIMIT (the rules for limit are different), any incomplete raise is best understood as not really "part of the game" but rather as "additional action" (think of it as a side bet, not to be confused with a side pot).

So, let's say it is after the flop (just for the sake of example, to avoid having to talk about the blinds) and the following scenario occurs:

Player A bets $20
Player B calls $20
Player C goes all-in for $30

The question that was asked here earlier, "can player A raise?" is easily answered if you understand that player C's incomplete "raise" (of the extra $10) is NOT to be intepreted as part of the game, but rather an additional side-action bet. In effect the player has only called, but also proposed (outside of the game, if you want to think of it this way) an additional $10 side bet (except that if you want to continue playing, you MUST accept this bet, so it's not really "outside of the game").

Given this, player A cannot raise, because all that has happened behind him are calls, there has been no raise. There has been a call by B, and a call by C but with that extra $10 side-bet that needs to be accepted as well.

Now take a different scenario:

Player A bets $20
Player B goes all-in for $30
Player C wants to raise

What is the minimum valid total amount for player C's raise? $40? $50? $60?

Again, this is easily understood if you understand the incomplete all-in as "a call plus additional action".

Given that player B "called" (with $10 of additional action, that we can ignore for a moment), the minimum amount that C can raise to is $40. Of course, C is obligated (by the rules of the game) to also participate in the additional $10 action proffered by B.

Therefore the minimum legal raise for player C is to $50 total, which is to be understood as a raise of $20 on top of the $20 bet from A and B, plus matching the $10 of additional side action on B's all-in.

Now if A wants to reraise, *his* minimum bet (for a reraise) would be to $70. Again this is because C's raise was to $40 (which is $20 more than the A bet), so the raise increment is still $20. Thus A can reraise to $60 but also still has to include the $10 side action for B's all-in.

Sounds complex but it is actually quite simple: an all-in that itself is not a legal raise is really just a call plus an entirely separate side-bet for the additional amount. That side-bet has to be included in all other subsequent bets, but otherwise does not affect the state of the bet/raise/call amounts dictated by the normal rules.

It is certainly possible for any given house to have its own interpretation of this situation; however, this is the rule as described (not very well) in Robert's Rules.


OutOfCrown

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Re: All In raise
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2008, 08:07:01 PM »
For some reason this has come up like three times in the last couple games.  Here's the scenario:

Player A bets $20.
Player B goes all-in for $30.
Player C wants to raise...can he or must he only call $30?  I say he can raise what ever he wants as long as it is at least $40 (since the $30 all-in was an incomplete bet).  Lately though there are those who say player C can not raise and can only call or fold

I do know that had Player C only called $30 then Player A can not reraise.

We've already addressed this with the actual rules, but just for completeness on the bold part: given that player C has not acted yet, how on earth could anyone believe that something players A and B do prior to C doing anything at all could ever possibly take away C's inherent right to raise?

That's just obviously wrong. You always have the right to raise when you are making your first action in any given betting round. Nothing that A and B do, short of them pulling the fire alarm, can take that right away from C (ignoring nitpicky exceptions like: if A bets more than C has, well obviously then C cannot raise at that point, but that's a nitpick that misses the main point)

Phaze

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Re: All In raise
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2008, 08:26:54 PM »
excellent description, all makes better sense the way you explain it... hardly ever comes up and even rarer that its important anyways... but good to know

cheers