Author Topic: Chip-Chop Calculation  (Read 6856 times)

jeff b

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Chip-Chop Calculation
« on: October 16, 2008, 06:41:34 PM »
I want to make sure I understand correctly how this works. If I enter the chip counts for the players involved in the chop, it distributes ALL of the remaining prize money based on each player's chip count.

What I would expect, for example in a 2-way chop, is that each player gets at least 2nd place prize money, then they divide the REMAINING amount according to their chip count percentages. The way it seems to do the calculation could result in the 2nd place player ending up with less money than they would have by just playing it out and coming in second. Am I not setting an option correctly or is this something I should suggest to be changed?

Corey Cooper

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Re: Chip-Chop Calculation
« Reply #1 on: October 17, 2008, 10:38:18 AM »
You are correct in that it divides according to chip counts and does not ensure any minimum amount.  So, if the final 2 players chop, the prize money that would be awarded to those two ranks (1st and 2nd) will be combined and then divided according to their chip counts.  If this results in one player receiving less than what they would have gotten for 2nd place, then that's the way the chips fall.  :)

So, if you don't want that to be the case, set the method to "Chip counts" to see how it would be divided strictly on their chip counts, and then switch it to "Real Values" and divide it manually.  You'll have to do some math yourself, but since the columns total automatically, it shouldn't be too hard.

jeff b

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Re: Chip-Chop Calculation
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2008, 12:50:50 PM »
It would be nice if the software did the math while ensuring minimum amounts; it gets a little more involved when it's a 3-or-more-way chop. Any chop I've ever done in a casino or online was done with that in mind, so I figured it was a much more common method. I don't know why anyone would agree to a chop if they were going to lose money. Could the formula be changed or an option added?

Thanks for the info either way.

Corey Cooper

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Re: Chip-Chop Calculation
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2008, 05:40:07 PM »
I'll look into it.  It's actually a relatively complex addition, I think.

MixMastaPJ

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Re: Chip-Chop Calculation
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2008, 12:36:29 PM »
Also, another cool feature would be to leave money out of the chop, (i.e. not everything gets chopped)

Lets say 1st place was scheduled to receive 800 and 2nd 500.  This means when they are heads up, they are basically playing for $300 (They both are guaranteed $500).

I've seen this live, and I know pokerstars does it for big tourneys: they require a certain amount to be left in the middle for the winner.  For this case, lets say $100 instead of $300/

Chop 1200 of the pot leave $100 for the winner etc.


basically, a setting that chops an amount of the pot, not just the entire pot.

jeff b

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Re: Chip-Chop Calculation
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2009, 03:13:22 PM »
Also, another cool feature would be to leave money out of the chop, (i.e. not everything gets chopped)

Lets say 1st place was scheduled to receive 800 and 2nd 500.  This means when they are heads up, they are basically playing for $300 (They both are guaranteed $500).

I've seen this live, and I know pokerstars does it for big tourneys: they require a certain amount to be left in the middle for the winner.  For this case, lets say $100 instead of $300/

Chop 1200 of the pot leave $100 for the winner etc.


basically, a setting that chops an amount of the pot, not just the entire pot.
There are several easy ways to do that. Either edit the prizes and change them to $700 and $600. Or just enter the actual amounts in the chip screen after the final two play it out for the final $100, and enter the relative ranks of 1 and 2 for each player.

I'm still hoping to see the calculation window changed. I've done chops on PokerStars also and they suggest the chip-chop for you the way I was describing. No one would ever do a chop that would result in less money than they've already locked up so the calculation screen is not very useful as is. It would be nice not to have to do the calculations manually, especially for a multi-way chop.

jeff b

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Re: Chip-Chop Calculation
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2009, 08:18:19 AM »
I wouldn't mind seeing the feature that MixMastaPJ suggested. We did a chop in our tournament this weekend where we chopped the bulk of the money among the final four players, but since it was our league championship, we left about $400 out to play it out for winner-take-all along with the title and trophy. The workaround was simple enough; I just edited the prize amounts as we paid them out. But it would be nice if it could have been entered in the chop screen, although I could see this part being a bit complicated. Perhaps if the chopped amounts were re-assigned to the prizes as opposed to the players it could work.

Any word on the other issue in this thread with the chip-chop calculation? I really think it would just be a matter of instead of dividing up the total remaining prize pool, you would just first subtract out nth place * n, where n is the number of players involved in the chop (the number of players left in the tournament). Then each player's share would be the nth place prize plus a chip-proportional share of the leftover prize pool. Anyway, I realize there are higher-priority items, just wanted to follow up on this. Unless I'm not aware of something, I think it would be a relatively simple calculation.

Corey Cooper

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Re: Chip-Chop Calculation
« Reply #7 on: March 02, 2009, 01:05:58 PM »
If you decide to split the final two prizes among the final two players, while leaving a certain amount "in the pot" for the two players to continue heads-up for, you aren't really chopping.  You're simply deciding to change the prize amounts.

For example, if 1st place was $700 and 2nd place was $300, then there's $1000 left in the pot to split among 1st and 2nd place.  If the final two players decide they are each going to get $450, and continue heads-up for the final $100, you've simply decided that 1st place is going to get $550 instead of $700, and 2nd place is going to get $450 instead of $300.

You could either (a) change the prize amounts to reflect this; or (b) override the prize amounts (better idea, since this retains what the prize was originally); or (c) adjust the player's winnings.  But I would not call this a "chop".

As for the other request, I think you're just saying that the chop dialog should never suggest a payout that would be lower than the player would otherwise have received.  Or better, the program should at least warn you [somehow] if a player would receive less than they would have if they simply continued playing...  right?  (This is still on the to-do list, by the way.)


jeff b

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Re: Chip-Chop Calculation
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2009, 03:43:36 PM »
I agree that (b) makes sense since it retains the original amount, but what's the difference between changing the prize amounts and overriding them, in terms of where you do that within the software?

I see your point about not calling it a "chop" but putting that option in the chop screen would be helpful as far as calculating the amounts, whether it's an even, uneven, chip-proportional or what have you. If 3 players were negotiating such a "chop" to play it out for either a fixed amount or a percentage of the remiaining prize pool, but split the rest 3 ways, it would be helpful to see what those amounts would be while trying to decide on it. Even if you wouldn't call it a "chop", the same calculation functionality would be very useful.

As for the other question, essentially yes, but I would think of it more as never allowing the possibility in the first place. That is, using the prize to be awarded to the next player who busts out as the minimum to be paid to each player.

In other words, let's say there are 4 players remaining, A, B, C and D, with 50%, 30%, 15% and 5% of the chips, respectively. Let's also say that the original payouts were for the top 5 finishers at $50, $100, $200, $300 and $400. Fifth place has already been paid, so there's $1,000 remaining.  As it is now, the program would suggest a payout of only $50 for 4th place (5% of $1,000). Instead of simply warning the player that the amount is less than what they'd receive if they busted out next, what I am suggesting would avoid that from happening at all.

If you use the 4th place prize as a starting point for each player, and reduce the remaining prize pool by 4 * $100 = $400, then divide up the remaining $600, you'd have A getting $100 plus 50% ($400 total), B getting $100 plus $30% ($280 total), C getting $100 plus 15% ($190 total) and D getting $100 plus 5% ($130 total).

As I was writing this, I thought that I thought of a possible complication, but it really isn't. That would be if there were more people chopping than were originally set to cash. For example if there were 4 places set to be paid but 5 wanted to chop. The answer is that you would simply use $0 as the starting point, since in both cases you're using the amount that the players are already guaranteed to win (which is equivalent to saying the amount that the next player to bust out receives). It would end with the same numbers you'd get now, of course, but you wouldn't need two separate calculation methods is my point. You'd still have a variable like "guaranteed payout" but it would be $0 in this situation.

Anyway, thanks Corey. Glad to hear it's on the to do list.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2009, 10:58:54 AM by jeff b »

Corey Cooper

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Re: Chip-Chop Calculation
« Reply #9 on: March 03, 2009, 10:50:10 AM »
There's no difference as far as result goes.  You would change the prize amount on the prize dialog for that particular prize.  If you wanted to override the prize amount (or the recipient), you make that change on the same dialog.  The override was initially added to allow for a non-standard prize to be able to be awarded (a prize that isn't awarded based on rank or knocking a particular player out, etc - like a prize for high hand).  In order for the winner of that prize to have their stats updated appropriately, the software needs to know who won the prize.  So the override for prize recipient was added to accomplish this.  While I was at it, I allowed the amount and points value of the prize to be overridden as well.  This turned out to be a good thing, in my opinion, because it allows for the prize amount to be changed while retaining the amount that the prize WAS, for future reference.

jeff b

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Re: Chip-Chop Calculation
« Reply #10 on: March 03, 2009, 10:56:52 AM »
Makes sense, I'll just have to take a look at it.

jeff b

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Re: Chip-Chop Calculation
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2009, 09:39:44 AM »
Ok, I saw what you're talking about with the override, makes sense. I would have used that instead of changing all the prize amounts, if I had noticed it.

Still, as far as the "chop" but continue playing thing, it's just a matter of assitance with the math. We almost screwed up our chop because we were looking at the total prize pool but had forgotten to subtract out the already awarded prizes. Fortunately we caught it before one of us busted out and left with the money.

Definitely a lower priority than the issue with the minimum prize in the chip-chop calculation.