Author Topic: Scoring vs. Points  (Read 2430 times)

Pakled

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Scoring vs. Points
« on: March 11, 2008, 02:33:20 PM »
Hello all,

I have a question about points vs. scoring. We run a small league;(around 20 players) and I have always entered my formula in the area that now says "Points for Playing". Previously my formula gave more weight to those placing in the money which is how we liked it. We used the column "Overall Score" on the stats tab for our sorting. It now looks as though there are different formula locations that do different things. Now the Overall scoring column seems to give everyone a score of 99.xxx and it looks like the Average points column is more like what the Overall Score column used to be. Basically I'm wondering if anyone can explain to me the difference between Overall score and Points for Playing. Also, what the heck is a "Hit"? We always assumed that it meant when a player got knocked out that you got a hit but now I'm not so sure. Any help you can give is appreciated. BTW if Mr. Cooper reads this you have done a FANTASTIC job with this program. I work at a small poker room here in Florida and I have convinced the poker room manager to use your program if it's OK with you.

Pakled
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Corey Cooper

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Re: Scoring vs. Points
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2008, 03:34:34 PM »
Hits: a hit is a knock-out or bust-out.  If player A busts-out player B, player A gets a "hit".

Points for Playing: a formulaic way to award Points to your players.

Previously, the Stats tab had a Score column that could only display the choice of one of two built-in formulas.  Now, you can create your own formulas for scoring players, independently of a player's Points.

So, if you just want to score players (or rank, or whatever you want to call it - compare players to each other) based on the sum or the average of their Points, you can just use the built-in summing and averaging of the Points column on the Stats tab.

But if you want to do something more complex, you can use the Tournament Scoring and Overall Scoring formulas of the Stats filter.

It works like this: You create a Tournament Scoring formula.  This formula is applied to each player, for each tournament, to arrive at a Score for that player for that tournament.  Then, you create an Overall Scoring formula, which takes those Scores for a player and computes an Overall Score for the player.

Why have a Points for Playing formula and a Tournament Scoring formula?  Because having a different formula on the Stats tab allows you to be more flexible.  If you are awarding Points to players, you may wish to score the players differently.

As [just] an example, points could be awarded to players during a season that eventually allows a player to enter a "final tournament" at the end of your season.  A player who earns enough points gets free entry into the tournament.  But points may not reflect how the player should be ranked against other players (maybe you're awarding points for buy-ins, rebuys, and add-ons, so that if a player has spent enough money during the season, they get free entry).  So to rank the players, you may use a different method.  Apply this method to the Tournament Scoring formula and the Overall Scoring formula (perhaps it is based on finishing place and number of players in the tournament), and you'll get your ranking system that is independent of how you awarded points to the players.


Pakled

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Re: Scoring vs. Points
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2008, 04:39:02 PM »
OK, I sorta understand that. My situation is this. We have a 20 person league that runs two tourneys a month. I want a way to rank them based on their skill, not necessarily how who plays more. In other words if One player plays 5 times and makes the top 3 each time I want him to rank higher than a guy who plays 10 times and just made the top 3 twice but had a lot of top 6 finishes to earn a lot of point. Even though the first player played fewer times he would seem to have more skill because he ranked higher each time he played. It sounds like I should use the overall scoring but I need help with a formula that will give more weight to the "In the money" finishers. I have a poker night this Saturday so any help you can offer would be great. Thanks.
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tandemrx

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Re: Scoring vs. Points
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2008, 06:35:17 PM »
I work it such that I give extra points for top 3 finishers in each tourney.

so, for base points, I give essentially 2 points to the last place finisher, then 1 point higher for each successive place up the rankings, so if 15 people are in the tourney, 1st place gets 16 points as base points.  Then I give 3 extra points for 1st place, 2 extra points for 2nd place and 1 extra point for 3rd place.  (plus I give 0.5 points for each hit and subtract 1 point for each rebuy and subtract 0.5 points for an add-on).

Then for overall season scoring I take the top 4 points from each players results from 6 tourneys.  Consistant high finishes puts people near the top, but you usually have to have won a tourney or gotten second or 3rd a couple times to come out on top of league points for the season.

This type of scoring kinda does what you are looking for (although there about as many iterations of this type of formula as there are stars in the sky - you could give more bonus points for placing high).

Pakled

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Re: Scoring vs. Points
« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2008, 08:55:33 PM »
That sounds interestinjg but then how do you do the overall scoring formula? That's the part I've never used before.
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jbruckner

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Re: Scoring vs. Points
« Reply #5 on: March 13, 2008, 01:27:31 PM »
Hi,

I am trying to introduce my scoring system.

So, I use the folowing method for ranking players in my poker league

On the game tab's "Point for Playing" section I use this: ((1-(r/(n+1))) * 112.50)
On the game tab's "Points for hit" section I use 10.00 (points)(If a player boosts out another one gets 10 points)
To give extra point for top three finishers I use 20 - 30 - 50 bonus points, what you can set up on the Prizes tab/Edit Prize/Amount/Points. You have to set individually for every prize.

This formula gives points range about 10 to 200 depend on how successfull a player is in the tournament.

After that I calculate the AVERAGE points from the tournaments points of every player. TD can do it by itself :-) you have to set Stats tab/Filter/Tournament Scoring/Formula: points (just this single word!)

And finally on the same tab set Overall Scoring to the following: if(count(scores) >= (n * .3), 1, 0)*average(scores). Where is the key string is the ""average(scores)"". It calculates out the average. ((And the reason of the ""if(count(scores) >= (n * .3), 1, 0)*"" string is that there is a minimum (30%) percentage of the total tournaments you must play to be ranked. Otherwise your average point will be multiplied by zero witch gives zero result :-) )

And the last step is to configure the coloums that are displayed on the stats main tab.

I hope this helps.
(Sorry for my poor English)
Best regards,
jbruckner

Corey Cooper

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Re: Scoring vs. Points
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2008, 02:29:06 PM »
Pakled, if you want to use the scoring mechanism in the earlier version of the software, it is outlined in the user manual.

19.2.5.1 Logarithm Method
This method averages a player's relative rank across all played tournaments, with a strong advantage for larger tournaments.

Set your Tournament Scoring formula to the following:
Code: [Select]
log((n + 1) / r)

Set your Overall Scoring formula to the following:
Code: [Select]
(1-exp(-average(scores))) * 100

19.2.5.2 Percentile Method
This method averages a player's relative rank across all played tournaments, with only a slightly higher advantage for larger tournaments.

Set your Tournament Scoring formula to the following:
Code: [Select]
(1 - (r / (n + 1))) * 100

Set your Overall Scoring formula to the following:
Code: [Select]
average(scores)

Pakled

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Re: Scoring vs. Points
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2008, 08:41:54 PM »
OK guys. First off thanks for all the help. I have my points for playing set the way I like. My problem is that now I wanna get my overall score formula to represent a truly better player. In other words I don't want a guy who plays in half the tournaments and finishes in the top 3 to get beat out by a guy who plays in all the tournaments and usually finishes in the middle of the pack. In my opinion the first guy is the more skillful player and deserves a better score.

Unfortunately jbruckner's overall scoring seems to be doing just that. It really only seems to replicate the average points into the overall score column. Obviously the more points a player collects the better average they will have.

tandemrx seem to have a similar idea but I really didn't understand how to implement it. Could you perhaps show me your overall score formula tandemrx?

Mr. Cooper: I read your final post and I think it's the same thing that is in the on-line help which was just a bit to confusing for me. I'm probably asking for something very complicated to be explained in a simple manner and for that I apologize. In your earlier version were there all these different formulas or did TD do the overall score for me. I think it just seemed simpler last year.

Again, any help is appreciated.

Pakled
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jbruckner

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Re: Scoring vs. Points
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2008, 05:58:05 AM »
hi Pakled,

That is not exactly right if you think that the more points a player collects the better average they will have in my scoring system.
Instead of that nearly the opposite is the case. When you play lot of turneys your average score will be drop except you win all the torneys :-)
You have to play good throughout the whole season to have a good average point. And the bonus points make more valuable the top 3 places.

That is sound great, but there is a big problem with this scenario. If a player competes in just one tournament, and she managed a high score, she will be on the top of the list. That's the reason of the 30% must play rule.

I hope this time I could explain myself more clearer. :-)

kind regards,
jbruckner

Corey Cooper

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Re: Scoring vs. Points
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2008, 10:35:42 AM »
Pakled: it is exactly what is in the user manual - I copied it in the post.  Earlier versions of the software were simpler - it only gave you the option of choosing, in the Stats Filter, either the Logarithm method or the Percentile method for scoring players.  The software changed to allow users to create their own formulas.  With flexibility comes complexity.  But to help out, I provided the formulas that were used in previous versions so that you could, if you wanted to continue using those formulas, be able to easily enter those formulas into the new Stats Filter.  As a matter of fact, the upgrade process automatically did this for you.  So, if you had a Stats Filter that had the Logarithm Score method chosen, when you upgraded the software, the filter was automatically upgraded to include the correct formula.  In other words, you wouldn't have to change a thing, the Stats Filter would continue working just as it had before.

The directions I posted (from the user manual) give you the steps needed to setup your filter.  They also have a description of the two formulas.

Pakled

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Re: Scoring vs. Points
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2008, 09:20:01 PM »
Thank you Mr. Cooper. Now the only question I have left is this....Which method would have been the default method upon install? I'm sure I never changed that. I guess the last question I might have just to make sure is this...Are the Log and percent method what effected the overall score column? and if so does the Tournament scoring filter ever come into play in the earlier versions or can I leave it blank?
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Corey Cooper

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Re: Scoring vs. Points
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2008, 10:18:25 AM »
The Logarithm method was the default method.

The earlier versions of the software did not have Tournament Score or Overall Score - there was simply Score.  It was calculated based on which method you chose.

The description in the user manual, which I posted in an earlier reply, describes how to configure the Tournament Score Formula and the Overall Score Formula, which is what is used now in the Stats Filter, to reproduce what the software previously did for you automatically when you chose either the Logarithm method or the Percentile method.