The Tournament Director Forums
Main => Help Me => Topic started by: Bojan1983 on June 20, 2007, 12:01:57 PM

I need a little help with explaining how the point system works...
There are many things i dont understand and I spend alot of time reading forums and help section in TD... But i lost my patience, so, plz, tell me, how are points calculated by default?
with time i ll have more Qs concerning this topic, but for now, i ll be happy if somebody answers me on this one above...

There is no "default" way points are calculated. Awarding points to players is entirely up to you: if you want to award points, and how players earn those points.
If you have simple criteria, like players get X amount of points just for playing in a tournament, and get Y amount of points for rebuying, and Z amount of points for knocking someone out of a tournament, you can just enter those amounts into the various input fields provided for that purpose: "points for buyin", "points received for rebuy", "points for hit".
However, if the manner in which you award points is more complicated, you can use the "Points for playing" field, which allows you to enter simple or complex formulas, based on information about the tournament and its players.
If you load the "sample.tdt" tournament provided with the software, you'll see it awards points using the "Points for playing" field, using a simple formula:
n  r + 1
.. where n stands for "number of players" and r stands for "rank". Evaluating that formula in a tournament with 20 players for the player who got 1st place (or rank 1) gives "20". So first place gets 20 points. 2nd place gets 19 points, all the way down to last place which receives 1 point. The formulas can be as simple or as complex as you like.

Ok, i ve read that in help file...
probablly i didnt explain right what i mean... i was using TD now to try something, and the column in stats i was talking about has title "Overall score" (was that changed in last version? i was sure it was total points)...
so, my 2nd try...
How is overall score calculated

Very similar to "Points for playing".
You define, in the filter, your "Score" formula and your "Overall Score" formula.
The "Score" formula is done almost exactly like "Points for playing", and when you run the Stats, it creates a score for each player in each tournament.
The "Overall Score" formula then combines the Scores for each player (for each tournament) into an Overall Score. So, as the user manual explains, an example would be:
(1  (r / (n + 1))) * 100
.. as the Score formula. This creates a score for each player for each tournament.
Then:
average(scores)
.. as the Overall Score formula, would produce an overall score by averaging the scores the player achieved in each tournament in which they played.

uf... i am confused... maybe cause its 3 am...
well, i would like to have points that award playing, final position...
something less you play  more you win  more pts...
or I dont know... is there some formula that you could suggest me to use... or to choose from...

Decide what's important to you, and go from there.
Is simply playing important? Or is making the top couple spots most important? Or are other factors what you value?
Tell us that, and then we can go from there.

Yea you are right, but, i am not sure that i can say what is most important... thats why i wanted to see if there is some "most used" system which i could modify, if needed...
btw, i wanna make something clear..
if i go to "STATS" tab, and click "refresh tourneys", I have 2 columns at the end...
POINTS  that is point system which you assign to each tournament individually... right?
OVERALL S  that is overall point system (+"POINTS") which once changed applys for all tournaments?

"Points" is the sum of the points the player received for each tournament in which they played.
"Overall Score" is the score value calculated using the Overall Score formula defined in the Filter.

I would start with n  r + 1 and then after you run a couple tournaments, you can decide how complicated you want to make it.

Hmm... sorry, cant say I know what to do next... Only thing i know that first season will be decided by money won, and I ll add points in next season... Until then i ll read help files and try to set what i want... I also hope you ll answer my doubts on my way...
1. As i noticed before my stats do not show any points, thats because i didnt use it till now... Once i find ideal point system can this be added to all tournaments at once or that should be done one by one?...
2. As i get it, overall score does formula which calculates average points of each player from all tournaments... How come I have overall score in my stats page if I didnt define points for tournaments i added? Also, in filter at the bottom, "Formula result  Overall : score" field is empty... So, why do, I for example, have 69.2156?

Decide what's important to you, and go from there.
Is simply playing important? Or is making the top couple spots most important? Or are other factors what you value?
Tell us that, and then we can go from there.
Poker tourney points system...
Not sure how should i set my point system but here are few guidelines for someone willing to make them for me...
Ranking  Every position should make the difference... It shouldnt be the same if you finish 4th or 7th... Offcourse, being first and in top3 is most
important... But, "strength" of being 1st, 2nd or 3rd should depend on total number of players(+rebuys)... We usually play with 612 players, with 1 rebuy,
and allways split prize for top3 (50/30/20%)... So i guess strnegth of being 1st could be related to how much money was won...
Also, being 7th in 10man tourney should be better then being 7th in 7man tourney.
Rebuys  shouldnt be rewarded, also shouldnt be ignored... in 10man tournament player who finishes 5th without rebuy should get more pts then the player
finishing 5th in 10man tournament with rebuy...
Hits  Maybe not important, but maybe player with many hits should be rewarded, not much though...
Constant playing  Well, this is not easy to explain... It should be important, it shouldnt allow player with 10% of tournament played to be first in the
stats, nevermind the results he has...
But still, quality should be infront of quantity... Stats should do both, make player wanna come to play, and incourage players that didnt came so often to
try to improve their position with good play.
For me to do this is impossible, since i dont even have clue what should be in tournament scoring formula and what should be in overall scoring formula...
Hope someone will help...
btw, above "guidelines" were written just after thinking about stats, i am sure i ll have something to add once I see this in function...

yeah no problem, what you want is similar to our tourny... but quick question for you, about the constant playing... you can give points to every ranking, just more points for the highest rankings. Would this suffice to giving points for constant playing?
Matt gave the very simple and most widely used formula n  r + 1 . This formula will make sure everyone gets points based on their ranks. If you want additional points, then put brackets around n  r + 1 and add (+) it to the next part of your formula
if you want to award first, second or any other rank you can add an if statement. It is written out like "If somebody's rank is something then give him/her this many points, but if it isn't then do this:"
so to add points to first place finisher: if(r = 1, 20, 0)
that says "if the rank is equal to 1 then give him 20 points, otherwise he gets nothing." You can nest these rankings so it looks like this:
if(r=1,20, if(r=2, 30, if(r= 3, 40)))
notice here that 1st gets 20 points, second gets 30 points and 3 gets 40... thats probably not how you want to award the points but that is how they will be awarded. Just be sure to encase your formula with the right amount of brackets
When you look at the testing formula popup window you will see that beside the boxes there are letters inside of brackets. Any of those you can manipulate in your formula. So if you want to award special points for how much money they make you can add this to your formula:
(pw * 5)
and that will make any prize winnings times 5 to be added as points.
so here is my suggestion
(nr + 1) + (if(r=1, 20, if(r=2, 15, if(r=3, 10))))  (nr*2) + (nh*2)
So everyone will get points, the more tournaments you play, the more points you collect, the better your ranking, the more points you get... if a person gets last place in every of the 10 tournaments played in a season, he will have equal amount of points as a person getting first place once. If you get 1st, 2nd or 3rd place you get 20, 15, 10 extra points respectively. If you purchase a rebuy you get 2 points taken off your points. For every person that you take out of a tournament you get 2 points

Don't confuse "points" with "score".
Points are simply a value that can be given to a player in a tournament for any number of reasons. Using the Stats, the points can accumulate over many tournaments (much like total winnings, or total losses accumulates over many tournaments).
Overall Score is a value used to rank players' performance, relative to one another, over many tournaments. The "Score", as defined on the Stats tab, is simply a value you give to a player for a tournament. You do this to facilitate generating an "Overall Score". In other words, score a player on each tournament in which they play, then take those scores and generate an Overall Score.
The reason you'll see an Overall Score on the Stats tab, even if you didn't create a Score or Overall Score formula, is that a filter by default has formulas defined for these values. You are free to change them or delete them.

tnx corey for those posts...
still, i am not sure i understood overall score method...
The "Score", as defined on the Stats tab, is simply a value you give to a player for a tournament
which value am i giving to player?
sorry to bother you :)

OK...
For every player that is in a tournament, they have a number of attributes: Buyin cost, rank, rebuy cost, winnings, hits, points, etc.
When generating Stats, those values are taken for a set of tournaments and we arrive at final values for those attributes. We do this in different ways for different attributes, but because these are known values, the TD software knows how to arrive at a final value. For example, on the Stats tab you'll see "Hits", which is the sum of the number of hits a player made for each tournament. You also see "Average Hits", which is the average number of hits a player made. The TD can compute these because it knows what type of value it represents.
While the "Points" value displayed on the Players tab represents the amount of points a player has received in this (the currently loaded) tournament, the "Points" value displayed on the Stats tab represents the sum of the points a player has received in a set of tournaments. Again, because the TD knows this is a "points" value, it knows to add them up to arrive at a final "points" value on the Stats tab.
But there are other ways to rank players (or rate players or compare players or however you wish to phrase this). The "Score" value allows the user to make up their own way of rating a player's performance.
To do this, a new value is created for a player for each tournament in which they play. It is called "Score". When stats are generated, the "Score" (or "Tournament Score") formula is applied to each tournament in which they player, to create a "Score" value for that tournament (for that player). You don't see this value on the Stats tab, just as you don't see the "Points" value for some player for a single tournament (the "Points" value you see for a player on the Stats tab is the SUM of ALL of his "Points" values  for each tournament in which he played).
Now we've created a new value (for each player, for each tournament) called "Score". Just as each "Points" value was added together to arrive at a final "Points" value, we want to come up with a final "Score" value  in this case we distinguish it by calling it the "Overall Score". But the TD doesn't know how to do this, because any two users may want to do it differently. Therefore, there is another formula applied, called the "Overall Score" formula, that allows you (the user) to manipulate the "Score"s any way you wish. You may want to simply sum up the score values for a player, or you may want to add them up and divide them by the number of tournaments (an average), or any of a million other things.
Try switching the View mode on the Stats tab to get a better idea. In "Normal mode", you see the sums and averages, etc, of the attributes for a player. When in "Single field mode", you see only a single attribute, such as "Points", but you get to see that attribute for each tournament.
So, if playerX played in 3 tournaments, and was awarded 20, 30, and 100 points, respectively, for those tournaments, you'll see on the Stats tab (in Normal mode), 150 in the "Points" column (the sum of all points for playerX).
Switch to "Single field mode" and you'll see 3 columns, one for each tournament, and you'll see the values 20, 30, and 100 in those columns, breaking down the points that playerX received in each tournament.
You can do the same with the "Score" field, to see what your "Score" formula awards to a player for each tournament. Switch back to Normal mode and see what the Overall Score formula gives based on those Score values.

wow...
first, i wanna let you know i really appreciate this...
now, as a reply to your post...
Generally, everything you wrote made sense... but probabbly, cause i am not programer, neither have yet tried and get familiour 100% with your software (and english isnt my first language), I am still confused a bit...
Here is in short what I understood...
As you said, every player in each tournament get some basic attributes, like buyin cost, rank, rebuy cost, winnings, hits etc.... So these are attributes which all have some value...
Based on values of those attributes I can create, using formula, a point system for each tournament. For example "buyin cost"+"rebuy cost"/ "rank", and i can get points for each player for each tournament. In that way, points become one more atribute, or one more value...
Going on stats page I ll be able to see a sum of selected attributes (values) from all played tournaments...
So i ll know, for each player, how much he spent, he won, number of buyins & rebuys, (etc), and how much points he won in all tournaments...
I still dont see any advantage or need of using "overall score"... (I assume i would understand it if you gave some example)
I ll get into it in next few days so I hope i ll understood it better...
One more time, tnx for your effort...

Look in the "Default" filter for an example. Also see section 19.2.5 in the user manual for an explanation.

Ufff... i was playing with it now... still confused... but you know what, gimme time, i am sure i ll get it the more i use it...
Untill i get it, i ll need you to guide me a bit...
Here is pts system i wanna use (or score system, doesnt matter 2 me... ), i ve found it on some other forum where people discussed pts ranking method...
player points = sqrt( ("number of players in tournament" x "buy in") x ("buy in" / "total cost of player") ) / ("final place"+1)
If I am right that should be written like this :
sqrt( (n*bc)x(bc/tc) ) / (rank+1)
To use it i write that line in filter under "tournament scoring" and to get complete sum of all pts collected in this way, in overall scoring i put "sum(scores)"...
Right?

Yes, that looks like it would work.

didn't work for me when copy and paste...
probably because multiplication sign for program is apostrophe not X *

yeah, i figured that out in the meantime...
it should be
sqrt( (n*bc)*(bc/tc) ) / (rank+1)
btw, i am really happy with this formula... try it...

I just tried to export a tournament... in HTML... I wanted to have all details printed, but i cant find or figure out column that would show how much points player got for that tournament (related to above scoring method).... "Points" column is blank... (those are i guess those other pts, for which i still dont know what are they used for...)

I am still having this "problem"... When exporting a tournament i dont have an option to export a score player achieved based on tournament scoring...

If you are using the scoring formulas in the Stats filter, a player's overall score will end up in the "Overall Score" column. There are actually 5 of these columns (labeled "Overall Score", "Overall Score 2", "Overall Score 3", etc), corresponding to the 5 overall score formulas you can create, so it obviously depends on which one you used for your overall score formula.

I entered formula in first one, called "overall score"...
When I wanna export some tournament, i go load  select saved tournament... Then on game tab I select export > HTML... Then there are 2 lists, list of columns to show, and list of those which i dont wanna to show... There is no column called "overall score", "score" or anything I could relate to it...

Score and Overall Score are only available when computing statistics. They are not part of an individual tournament. So you can only export those values from the Stats tab.