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Main => Help Me => Topic started by: Keith_Huggins on November 23, 2006, 03:39:35 PM

Hello all and happy thanksgiving...
Starting in January we are going to start tracking points for our tournaments. I wanted to get a few suggestions to help decide which points system to implement.
Here is some info on the tourneys I run.
I use Tournament Director 2.x
We play 2 tournaments a week every Wednesday and Every Saturday.
We typically have about 17+ on Saturdays and close to 30 on Saturdays.
We have a good amount of regulars but not the same people every week / game.
I would like to be able to limit the "one time hitters" from leading the points board.
The league will either run from January to Late Nov / Dec so at least 80+ possibly 90+ tournaments.
Please feel free to post any suggestions. My plan is to have a couple different point systems so that I can present them to my players and they can vote on it.
Thanks again
Keith Huggins

What do you plan to do with the Points system? A tournament of Champions? How many players in the Tourney of Champions? say top 10 points leaders? 1 table  or maybe top 16  2 tables of 8 and room for dedicated dealers?
With the amount of Tournaments you'll be having  I don't think you'll have to worry about the "1 time hitters" getting into your TOC.
So really any points scheme will work well for you. The classic around here seems to be Points = Number of players  Rank + 1. So for 20 players  1st gets 20 points, 2nd gets 19 etc. Some people add a point for busting out the last winner (I do this,) some take away points for rebuys.
Jon

I only run 1 table at a time so my points structure is easy as you can see on my web page.
We had a meeting before we started and it was a massive vote to minus points for rebuys.
Having run a few games now, I think we will restructure the system next year and bring in
some of the ideas that we have got on this site, like points for playing and points for hitmen.
there is some good stuff on here, and a lot of people willing to help.
TD must be the best.
http://www.chorleypokerleague.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/

Thank you for the suggestions so far.
What are all the default options Tournament Director has built in for tracking points.
I really want to make it as automated as possible.

Keith,
I would suggest to have more than one session instead of having one big one for 80+ tourneys. Some may lose interest in playing if they are too far behind in points after already playing for 6 months. We only play one tournament a week (Sunday's) for ten weeks and award the top five with prizes. Then we start all over again, which everyone (even the ones that didn't do so well) came back for the second one.
Tim

I agree with the last post. I was in a 6month league last year and you had to pay a little extra to be in the running for points. After a while, people would slowly drop out because they might be half way down the list and didn't see a lot of chance to catch up. So the only people interested in the points and participating in the points championship were those in the top 10 spots.
I would limit it to no more than about 20 tourneys to keep people interested.
Do the math for whatever points schedule you choose with some theoretical finishes (give a couple people a couple of wins, others single wins and high places, other single wins and medium places, others high places and medium places, etc). Then you can see whether or not, after 10 tourneys, if the people in the middle will have any chance of catching up with those in the top spots.
I also like the idea of getting at least token points for showing up. Then you have extra motivation to play.
For my single rebuy OR single addon tourneys, everyone starts with 2 points, but you lose a point for a rebuy or 0.5 points for an addon, so at a minimum you will finish with 1 point.
Here is my "points for playing" formula: (nr+2) + if(r= 1,3,0) + if(r = 2,2,0) + if(r = 3,1,0)  nr  0.5*na + 0.5*nh
Essentially, start with 2 points, 1 extra point for each step up the ladder, top 3 places get 3, 2, and 1 extra points. lose a point for rebuy, lose 0.5 points for addon, gain 1 point for each hit.
So, the bigger your tournout, the more points you can win by placing higher in the tourney.
Not sure how this would work for a 30 person league.

Thank you Tandemrx and britnt7  I like the idea of smaller time lines.
I am thinking of doing quarterly  So every 3 months top whatever gets so much or a tourney.
But also a end of year tourney possibly the top dogs of the previous quarters get a free ride or something.
Tandemrx what does this do if(r= 1,3,0) I understand if r (your rank) = 1 (1st place) but what does the ,3,0 do?

I think it explains this in the help section somewhere, but it took some help from Corey for me to see this . . . lets see, its section 8.1.1 and you will see the "if" function in the bottom of the box with a bunch of other functions that can be used in points formulas.
For "if" there are 3 parameters and for the example of:
+if(r=1,3,0)
it means that "if the rank is 1 (1st place), then return the number 3, otherwise return the number zero".
So, if a person gets a rank of "1" then the whole condition returns the number "3" and it turns into:
+3 (so 3 points get added to that persons score). If a person gets any other rank, then the condition returns the number "0" and it turns into:
+0 (zero points get added)
So, for +if(r=2,2,0):
if the rank is 2 (second place), then add +2, othewise, +0
And for +if(r=3,1,0):
if the rank is 3 (3rd place), then add +1, otherwise, +0
Essentially I give the 1st place person an extra 3 points, 2nd place an extra 2 points, and 3rd place an extra point. Everybody else starts out with 2 points and gets one point for each place up the ladder they climb.
With 10 people it works out to (without hits, rebuys, addon point changes):
1st, 14.00
2nd, 12.00
3rd, 10.00
4th, 8.00
5th, 7.00
6th, 6.00
7th, 5.00
8th, 4.00
9th, 3.00
10th, 2.00
For a tourney with 11 people it works out to:
1st, 15.00
2nd, 13.00
3rd, 11.00
4th, 9.00
5th, 8.00
6th, 7.00
7th, 6.00
8th, 5.00
9th, 4.00
10th, 3.00
11th, 2.00
Make sense?
It is impressive how complex you could make these formulas  but fun to come up with different schemes.
Hope that helps.

Thank you  that was a termendous help...
And thanks for pointing out the section.

I would suggest finding a point system that works for you and then keep the point structure because the number of players per tourney may differ. My 23 person tourney starts with 32 points for first place and goes down by the rank. This way it is more fair if you win a tourney that has 23 players one week (receive 32 points) and another week someone else wins with only 20 players (still receive 32 points). The 2nd winner shouldn't be penalized for other players not showing up and have an option to win the same amount of points that someone won in week two with 23 players.
Our ten week, ten tourney, 23 players have always came down to the last week to determine the top five money winners which keeps everyone interested.

Thanks for your input Britnt7
I believe differently, I dont think of it as penalizing the second winner as much as rewarding the first winner (in your scenario  the larger tourney) It is harder to win a bigger tourney so I believe they should receive more points.
So far Here is what I am thinking.
Points by position (nr+1)
1 point or a half point for knocking someone out +nh or +(nh*.5)
everyone at final table (9th) receives a extra point or half point +If r<10,1,0 I think this one is right im trying to say If their rank is less than 10 then add 1 if not add 0
finally points for being in the money one extra for each setp so if it pays out 3 spots then +IF r==3,1,0 +IF r==2,2,0 +IF r==1,3,0 I believe there should be some ( in there somewhere as well but good for my explanation.
anyways  more example are welcome and thanks to everyones comments.
Keith Huggins

I have to say that while my own points scheme, like the one you (keith) are considering, does give bigger tourney winner more points based on the idea that it is harder to win with more people.
But, there is something to be said for Britnt7's approach because it does help keep a balance in points as the league progresses so that the leaders don't get out of reach of those in the middle or lower ground  and thus keeps people's interest.
That is why people come up with these elaborate formula's with logarithmic approaches and the hypotenuse of the right triangle divided by the number of beers the 3rd person brought to the tourney :D.
A mix of the 2 approaches tends to make things fun for all, but still rewards good play  cearly if there was 1 correct formula then we would all use it. It is fun that we have this program to experiment with various formulas.
Keith, I do think the formulas you list will do what you want them to do (assuming you add the parenthesis in appropriate places, but it sounds like you know what to do there).
If my tourneys were larger, I would probably add the final table item that you have added  nice idea.
I need more experience with my own formula to know if it will be successful in not just one season, but a following one.

Next year starts our 3rd year and once again I am changing the points system. It is a work in progress. You have to figure out how to come up with a point structure that is fair, keeps players coming back and ultimately leads to mild competition.
The system we are adopting next year is as follows:
1 point for each person you beat (the bigger the tourney, the harder it is to win)
1 point for each person you knock out (why not reward the players that are doing all the work)
1 point for making it to the Final 9 (gives some significance to being at a "Final Table")
1/2 way through the season we start offering a bounty on the STD points leader (5% of their STD points  works out to between 2 and 5 points)
I am no longer giving extra points for coming in the money because it's a long season and you're already getting rewarded with money. The Top 8 Point leaders go to the Final Table Championship (freeroll), everyone else plays a freeroll for the 9th spot. We count your Top 8 out of 10 tourneys. The starting chip stacks for the Championship game are graduated, giving an incentive to end the year higher in rank (e.g., 1st starts with twice as many chips as the 9th spot)

My point system gives more points to the top players when there is more competition (more players) and less points when the competition is less:
round(10*sqrt(n)/sqrt(r))
rounded to whole numbers; minimum points awarded: 10
Through the "TEST ALL" function, you can plug in different numbers of players and see if this is something that would be workable for you. Rather than award points for "hits" in the formula, I now just put that in the "Game" tab, so the static numbers that you see via the "TEST ALL" may actually be different. You can do the same thing with Rebuys and Addons.
i.e.  With 16 players: 1st place = 40 points; 4th place = 20 points; 16th place = 10 points. I award 2 points for every HIT which would then be added to the static numbers.

I don't necessarily agree with rewarding points for hits. We had one tourney last season in which the winner won the whole tourney by only knocking out only 1 person (2nd place finisher). If we would have awarded points for hits, 2nd & 3rd place would have gotten more points than the winner of the tourney. Granted this don't happen often but when it does, it may make the winner a little unhappy just because he didn't catch a big hand when someone decided to move allin.
We keep track of hits to award the person with the most hits an award at the end of each season. This works out far much better than awarding points to skew the scheme of the season. I would rather award the person that plays the best than the person that knocks more people out of the tourney. Anyone can get hits, just watch the 2006 world series of poker. Even though Jamie Gold won, I don't think he was the best player. He just caught every card possible to win.
Just my 2 cents.

I hear what you are saying but after 2 years of TDing my own league, I have seen people get into the upper ranks by sitting and waiting, not risk taking. They are being rewarded because they aren't calling the big bets. True, anyone can get hits, but not everyone risks their stack to call an allin. What if someone maintains their stack through the entire game while another player takes everyone out. Then the player that takes everyone out is unlucky (most time luck is all that matters between 1st and 2nd) and loses to the safe player. Has the safe player earned their 1st place? Yes, but if they complain because 2nd got more points then they did, then they should start playing some poker and taking risks.

The Tuesday Night Poker Club, normally plays 2 games each Tuesday. We play for a Quarter (3Months) and then at the end of the year we have the BIG FINALE
We really try to keep it simple and use the following for points. ((nr)*2)+5
Good Luck and Enjoy the New Year
Michael
Poker Dad

I hear what you are saying but after 2 years of TDing my own league, I have seen people get into the upper ranks by sitting and waiting, not risk taking. They are being rewarded because they aren't calling the big bets. True, anyone can get hits, but not everyone risks their stack to call an allin. What if someone maintains their stack through the entire game while another player takes everyone out. Then the player that takes everyone out is unlucky (most time luck is all that matters between 1st and 2nd) and loses to the safe player. Has the safe player earned their 1st place? Yes, but if they complain because 2nd got more points then they did, then they should start playing some poker and taking risks.
There are different types of players and not all players are the risk taking type of players. You can't take risks if you don't catch the right cards. If someone moves all in and I have a crap hand, then I should fold. If Mr. Jamie Gold to my left plays 2 3 just because it's suited and knocks out two players doesn't make him any better of a player than I am. My point is that if you played your best and ended up the winner but didn't necessarily catch the right cards at an all in time, you should still be rewarded the point leader for that week. Would you agree that the guy that finishes 2nd and knocks out 10 players deserves more just because he caught trips every other hand?
I agree with the poster earlier that said there is not one correct formula because we would all use it. I'm just saying that after two seasons and going into my third in February, everyone keeps coming back week after week and no complaints from no one about the point structure. This makes me very happy...

It really depends on what kind of reward you would like to play to be honest. If you want the consistant, loyal player do a Net Gain type method. If you want to reward agressive play make a bounty type scoring system. If you want to encourage people that can't come out and make it very often do a Percentile method.

I agree with the poster earlier that said there is not one correct formula because we would all use it. I'm just saying that after two seasons and going into my third in February, everyone keeps coming back week after week and no complaints from no one about the point structure. This makes me very happy...
I agree as well. As long as every keeps coming back for every tournament, then you must be doing something right. Who knows? After this year, I will probably change the point structure yet again.

Wow there has been some good conversation on this topic  thanks for everyones input. Here is what I ended up doing for my points as well as end of the year tournament
Reminder: I host 2 games a week (wednesdays and Saturdays) about 30 people on wed and 20+ on sat.
reverse ranking +1 (30 people 1st gets 30 last gets 1)
1 point for final table (9th or better)
1 point for knocking someone out.
In regards to the TOC, since i have it on two nights and not all players can make it to both nights  I felt that it was only fair to base it off of avg points.
Also to be eligible for ranking and/or the ability to buy in you have to have had played in 35% of the tournaments played. (about 30 games  were estimating high 80 to 90 games)
Prize pool  we take a 20 off the top of each tourney  that with buy in in the final game should add up to $2000+ Prize pool
Thanks again for all the help.
Keith

Wow. Lots of great discussion here. We are into game #5 of our 2007 Series. This is our second season. The first one went very well and I have had to cap the number of people I invite to this year. I will share what we are doing in case it is of use to anyone setting up a series.
We play with two tables. Minimum # of players is 6 and Maximum is 16 for official PFH Series Games.
Points formula is quite simple. Each player receives 10 points for every player that busts out before them. The top four players (Cash earners) get their points factored as follows:
1st place is multiplied by 1.50
2nd place is multiplied by 1.35
3rd place is multiplied by 1.15
4th place is multiplied by 1.05
We run the series from January to October and the top eight points earners will meet at the final table.
I commit to hosting a minimum of 20 games and a maximum of 40 during the season, (life happens).
Points are based off of the best 7 of the first 10 games played.
Each player receives 2 points for every elimination, (they all liked the idea of a take out bonus). This is in place for the entire series, even after your first 10 games are done.
We have 52 on the invite list, (how is that for coincidence?). Many players play more than the 10 games needed for points calculations. In October, there is a satellite seat game. The 8 seats at this game go to the players with the most games played that currently have not made it to the final table. The top 2 from this game get to join the chosen 8 for a final table game of TEN players.
Every player contributes $5 each game to the final pot.
In addition to the nightly payouts for the top four positions, we have a nightly bounty pot and three accumulating pots.
(1) Bad Beat Pot.... Pays out when it occurs.
(2) Gunslinger Pot... Pays out when the pot trips over the $100 limit.
(3) Best Hand Pot... Pays out when the pot trips over the $75 limit.
Currently we are using TD to run the tournament but we track all of the points rankings, financial rankings, and pots in Excel. TD is a great program, but we felt Excel would meet our Unique needs better.
Anyways,
Great to hear what everyone is doing with TD and their Poker Series...
Cheers,
Bix

what is a gunslinger pot (highest number of hits?)
How do you define your "bad beats" and how do you distribute the "best hand" pot? for "best hand" do you just give it to the person who had the best hand of the night after the $75 is met?

what is a gunslinger pot (highest number of hits?)
How do you define your "bad beats" and how do you distribute the "best hand" pot? for "best hand" do you just give it to the person who had the best hand of the night after the $75 is met?
Gunslinger is the most take outs up to the point the pot pays, then everybody has their G/S count reset to zero.
A bad beat is any hand that is full house or better and is beat by another hand.
We keep a Best Hand registry, where players can register the best hand if it beats the current best hand in the registry. Currently, in our series, one player has a straight flush. 6S7S8S9S10S. When the limit is tripped, the pot pasy out to teh best hand to date and the registry gets reset.
Hope that makes sense...

I'm about to implement a point system and I really like the square root idea, but what I have done is changed the 10 to 20 and gave points for rebuys, addons, and hits. I'm giving 2 points for each hit and 1 for each rebuy (we allow 2 rebuys in the first hour and 1 add on after the first hour is up, during first break only). The reasoning for this is that we are a social group, and we don't want anyone having to sit out in the first hour. There is only 1000 chips for rebuy and addons with starting chips of 2500 so its not really all that beneficial to go all in when you lose. Anyways, rebuys and addons only add money to the total pot so its contributing therefore you get points. The place times 20 points makes it more important to place better than to try getting your points through hits, addons, or rebuys. Not sure how this works in practice, but thats my thoughts in theory.