The Tournament Director Forums

Main => Templates, Layouts and Sounds => Topic started by: sdemmy on September 14, 2012, 10:30:15 AM

Title: Shoot Out Template
Post by: sdemmy on September 14, 2012, 10:30:15 AM
Has anyone figured out a Tournament Template for a "Shootout" Tournament with out having to basically run it as 2 separate Tournys? 
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: jodybingo on September 14, 2012, 10:44:47 AM
Try this;
Create all your tables and one additional for our final table. Make all seats unavailable on this final table. As players are eliminated bust them then immediately delete their seat by right clicking on the seat and selecting Delete Seat. This will assure that TD does not suggest a table balance (all seats will be taken). Once you get down to your final table Select Clear on the Tables Tab and check the Make all seats available markes unavailable. Suggest Movement. This should move all players to your final table.
jody
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: sdemmy on September 14, 2012, 03:57:49 PM
Pretty good idea thank you :), but it would be nice to have that tournament option more readily available on TD since it is one of the top tourny styles out there.  Any other ideas or actual templates out there? 
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: jodybingo on September 14, 2012, 06:59:03 PM
This method is probably the easiest. Magic or Stu or Corey should be able to confirm this. Most popular? Not in my neck of the woods. But game preferences change from region to region I guess.
I will keep my TD helmet on and try to think of another way to run a shootout in TD.
jody
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: sdemmy on September 15, 2012, 11:28:39 AM
Thanks, I didnt say "most popular" just one of the top formats.  I have played these formats at casinos, and as satellite tournys.  Well I appreciate everyone's help.

Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: Corey Cooper on September 15, 2012, 05:46:33 PM
So, in a shootout you simply don't move any players until only one player remains at each table, right?  Then you combine for the next round (or next part of the tournament, so to speak)?

If that's the case, just ignore player movement suggestions, or turn them off altogether.  Settings window -> Tables tab -> Settings -> Automatically suggest player movements

Or am I missing something?
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: Magic_fubu on September 15, 2012, 08:45:13 PM
I would probably suggest going as Corey suggested, and turn off the table balance. Would definitely prevent players from moving. But as far as anything being set up, it would be difficult to have a template per say, however, you could create a number of tables, and save it as a template ("shootout template"), and create your blind structure as needed ("shootout blinds") and so forth.
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: sdemmy on September 19, 2012, 03:04:55 PM
Thanks every one for your help, I will def play around with those ideas this week.   Corey just for future improvements or as an extra feature, this style of tournament is widely used for Satellites in Casinos and online, there are also a lot of home tournaments and charity tournaments that use the shootout format, maybe it would be good to work these kinda diff tourny styles or options into future updates?  Just a thought.

Thanks again, and still open for anyone else's input.

Scott
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: Corey Cooper on September 20, 2012, 09:59:41 AM
I think it's great idea, I just want to understand what it would mean for the software.
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: big_alv77 on January 05, 2013, 01:57:06 AM
Try this;
Create all your tables and one additional for our final table. Make all seats unavailable on this final table. As players are eliminated bust them then immediately delete their seat by right clicking on the seat and selecting Delete Seat. This will assure that TD does not suggest a table balance (all seats will be taken). Once you get down to your final table Select Clear on the Tables Tab and check the Make all seats available markes unavailable. Suggest Movement. This should move all players to your final table.
jody
^^^ This a great idea for the logistical part of the tourney structure. Thanks.

...I am interested in taking the shootout format one step further and could really use some feedback please. Essentially, how would you setup the scoring system so that the points allocated are based on the rankings "within the respective table" as opposed to "in relation to the entire tournament"?

For example: Let's say there are 6 seats at each table, and the points awarded are as follows:
1st = 10 pts, 2nd = 7pts, 3rd = 5pts, 4th = 3 pts, 5th = 2 pts, and 6th = 1 pt (This scoring system is for each table, respectively.)

In theory, one table can be completed (ie: 1 player remains at this table) while another table can still have multiple players still live in the shootout tourney.  So, in the scenario of Table 1 with only 1 player remaining, this player would earn 10 pts and the rest of his/her tablemates would receive 7,5,3,2,1 points, respectively, based on their rankings within Table 1 only. ...The same scoring system would then apply to all other tables "separately" and does not take the "rankings across all tables" into consideration.

I hope the example above makes sense.  I'm trying to setup a Team Poker event (similar to the World Cup of Poker) and the Shootout format is a key component of this structure.

Thanking you in advance...and Happy New Year to all.
Al
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: Magic_fubu on January 05, 2013, 02:09:07 AM
Makes complete sense to me, I think. Essentially you want each table to act as if it were its own tournament, yet be one official tournament. Since TTD isn't able to do that (to my knowledge at least), I suggest that you append their table number to be their nickname if not being used, and show that as part of the name on your screens and award points manually. Only other option would be to make each table be its own tournament, but that would be a pain too...
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: big_alv77 on January 09, 2013, 09:57:59 PM
Makes complete sense to me, I think. Essentially you want each table to act as if it were its own tournament, yet be one official tournament.


That's correct.

Quote
...I suggest that you append their table number to be their nickname if not being used, and show that as part of the name on your screens and award points manually. ...

I think you and I are on the same train of thought.  As a test, I have used the "nickname" field to enter in the "Team Name" of some individuals.  Then, when I look at the Rankings or Seating Chart screens, I can clearly identify which players belong to which team. ...Now, if I can somehow get the scoring system to recognize these characteristics, that would be absolutely fantastic!

Perhaps in the points formula, if there is a way to distinguish each "table" and then use the internal variables (ie: rank, position, etc.) along with the "table" info, then we may be onto something.  Oh well, this is a work in progress but I am encouraged to know that someone (Magic_fubu) understands what I am trying to accomplish.  Thanks for your suggestions. -Al
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: big_alv77 on January 09, 2013, 11:44:07 PM
I found this item (not sure if it's a variable or not) on the "Points for Playing Formula" screen:

"playersAtSameTable" -> the number of players sitting at the table with this player (including this player; if the player is sitting alone the value will be 1).

If the above is, indeed, a variable we can use with the points for playing formula, then perhaps there is a way to incorporate this into a Shootout format.  For example, let's say each table seats 6 players and the points (at each table) is 10,7,5,3,2,1, then the following (I will need help with this part, please) will be:

if playersAtSameTable = 1, then points = 10
if playersAtSameTable = 2, then points = 7
if playersAtSameTable = 3, then points = 5
if playersAtSameTable = 4, then points = 3
if playersAtSameTable = 5, then points = 2
if playersAtSameTable = 6, then points = 1

So, if the above is true, then the points awarded to each player will only take the individual's table into consideration (ie: a separate tourney/shootout format) and not the entire tournament rankings. I hope I'm on the right track. Thanks.
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: big_alv77 on January 10, 2013, 12:14:38 AM
When I test this formula (via formula results > test range) it does give me the results I am looking for.  I'm just not sure if this works across multiple tables.

switch(playersatsametable, 1, 10, 2, 7, 3, 5, 4, 3, 5, 2, 6, 1)

Does this work?

Thanks, Al
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: Corey Cooper on January 10, 2013, 11:13:43 AM
Just a note that playersAtSameTable represents the number of players at the same table as "this" player at this time ... meaning it will change if you move players around.

Not sure if that matters to what you guys are doing or are trying to do, but just wanted to be sure that was understood.
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: big_alv77 on January 10, 2013, 09:39:18 PM
Just a note that playersAtSameTable represents the number of players at the same table as "this" player at this time ... meaning it will change if you move players around.

Not sure if that matters to what you guys are doing or are trying to do, but just wanted to be sure that was understood.

Yes, I am with you so far, Corey.  Thanks.

In this particular case, a shootout format would not have any player movements so all players would remain at the same table until 1 player remains at that table.  (This would appear to function as a "single table tournament".)

...Here's where I am at and what I'm trying to do:

1. PlayerA busts out. TD checks to see which table PlayerA was sitting at and how many players are left at that table.
2. PlayerA's points are then awarded based on "number of players remaining at this table just before PlayerA busted out".

In the formula syntax, I have a partial #2:

assign("eventscore", switch(playersatsametable, 1, 10, 2, 7, 3, 5, 4, 3, 5, 2, 6, 1))
eventscore

...I think I'm missing an "if" statement and/or #1 from above.

Any suggestions? Thanks.
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: Magic_fubu on January 11, 2013, 12:55:19 AM
Trying to award points based upon how they finish at a particular table, like a shootout but running multiple at the same time on one tournament. Assuming we turn off auto balance for this, would it be possible to have a "tablerank" variable/token to use?

Edit: *blush* now how did I miss the start of a second page to the topic?? At least it seems like we are still on the same page, big.
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: big_alv77 on January 12, 2013, 12:49:57 AM
TOKENS!!! I forgot about those.  A "tablerank" token is a perfect suggestion! Thanks, Magic_fubu.

I've learned how to create and use tokens in the Rounds tab and making reference to the tokens in the layouts.  Unfortunately, I don't know how to use tokens as part of a formula for points.  I do like the "tablerank" idea as this appears to be exactly what I am looking for.  I guess I'll play around with the syntax until I stumble upon something concrete.  Cheers.

Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: big_alv77 on January 12, 2013, 02:14:19 AM
Ok, so here's my update.  Magic_fubu's suggestion of a new "tablerank" variable/token should do the trick.  I believe this would be similar to the leagueRank variable.  I can appreciate that this suggestion may require an update to the TD software. ...If I was to try and accomplish this same functionality, I might try the following:

1. Use one of the player identifiers (ie: ID or nickname) that is not in use, and insert the Table Name or Table Number of that player manually into this field.

2. Repeat Step 1 for all players.

3. For the points for playing formula, create a "loop counter" variable which checks for "Table Name/Number" and then subtracts from a respective "Table Counter" (such as "table1count = table1count - 1") when a player busts out.

4. You then have your switch statement which references the table count of that busted player and assigns the desired value for the busted player's points.

Example: Assume 2 tables with 6 players per table. No player movements allowed (Shootout format)

Table1 has 6 players, thus, Table1Counter = 6

When PlayerA (sitting at Table 1) busts out, the points formula checks that ID = Table1 (manually entered by you before the tourney begins).  If this condition is true, then your points is determined by the following:

assign("points", switch(table1count, 1, 10, 2, 7, 3, 5, 4, 3, 5, 2, 6, 1))
points

then, "table1count = table1count - 1" (so, now, table1count = 5).

...now, you could have a variable for all table numbers so you don't have to repeat the formula for each table.

I think this might work, but I acknowledge that this is a VERY basic way of doing this.  A more streamlined formula is certainly appreciated and/or the "tablerank" variable suggested by Magic_fubu.  ...If others are interested in running a "Team Poker" concept (which requires the Shootout format), then perhaps there might also be a need to add all the points of teammates (using another indentifier variable to enter the TeamName of each player) and display that "teamscore" on the Rankings screen.
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: Corey Cooper on January 14, 2013, 11:56:43 AM
The fundamental issue is that the TD software is designed for a traditional poker tournament.  The software retains [at least] as much information about a tournament such that it can compute the tournament's state at any given time.  The state includes not only the round, time, blinds, etc, but also every player's status, history, costs, winnings, points, etc.  At any given time, the software can clear out those details and use internal information about the current tournament to recompute all of those details.

In order to include something like a "table rank", it would also have to retain the position a player busted out relative to other players seated at the same table.  This is a meaningless data point in a traditional poker tournament, especially since players are moved around to balance play, and thus it isn't collected.

While it might not be a difficult thing to do, it represents a fundamental change in the software.  I'd have to study it a little bit to determine other contributing or mitigating factors.  I wouldn't want to "tweak" the software just to be able to handle a shootout-style tournament.  Instead, I'd want to be sure I understood the requirements more completely so I could modify the software such that other tournament styles would be easy to implement.

As an example, would rebuys be allowed in a shootout style tournament?  As sure as someone chimes in this discussion and says "no", someone else will later say "yes".  How is that handled?  When someone rebuys are they immediately sat at an existing table?  Or do they wait for the second round?  How does it affect their "table rank" (since they will, most likely, bust out twice)?
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: big_alv77 on January 15, 2013, 11:05:32 AM
Hi Corey,

Thanks for your feedback.  I can certainly appreciate the efforts involved with tweaking the code.  ...In the interest of working with the existing software, I did a couple of tests over the weekend.  It turns out that only the ID field (and not the Nickname field) can be used in the points formula.  I was able to give points to all players sitting at the same table using ID as my identifier for "table name" or " table number".  The point value was the same for all players at the same table (...it's a start, I guess.)

My follow up to this test is to ask if there is a way to create a "counter" on the points formula which does not reset back to it's initial value when each player is knocked out (ie: which is when the points formula will run next)?

The idea is that the "counter" will be used for all players sitting at the same table.  When one player is eliminated, the counter will decrease by "1".  You can then execute the rest of your points formula and the eliminated player will be ranked according to his/her tablemates. ...When the next player is eliminated, assuming it's from the same table, the counter retains the value from the previous eliminated player (and does not reset to the initial value).  The same "counter" will then decrease by "1" and the points formula is executed again.  Each table can essentially have its own counter.

I hope this makes sense.  It would be a workaround to the "tablerank" variable being discussed.
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: Corey Cooper on January 17, 2013, 12:46:36 PM
Each player's points is just another part of the overall tournament state, which is constantly recomputed.  There wouldn't be a way to add a counter that only decreases at specific times without altering the way the software handles a tournament, which goes back to what I was previously discussing.  Sorry.
Title: Re: Shoot Out Template
Post by: big_alv77 on January 18, 2013, 03:38:47 PM
Not a problem, Corey.  Thank you for your time, efforts and continued support.